Mr Everett at Manch
 

Hello, just wondering what people got out of todays meetings with Richard Everett at Manchester today? Did people have their questions answered? Any fears they have put to rest or made worse?

Seemed like a listening exercise but he's obviously well satisfied with the funding of the pension scheme.

Pension Fund
 

Ah! So he's the only one then? I'd prefer an independent in charge rather than an in-house finance director with the never-to-be-forgotten initials RM!!!!!!!

It was interesting to talk to Tricky Ricky and hear what he had to say - as well as what the other speakers / panel members said too.

A couple of people during my little chat forcefully raised concerns regarding the move "oop north" and, to be honest, I felt the answers that were actually given (there was a little issue dodging on show admittedly) were direct and to the point, even if they weren't what the majority of us wanted to hear.

In one case it'll be interesting to see what happens to the controller concerned, a really nice chap, given the frankly sad circumstances of his move down from Scotland a couple of years ago. I hope he for one is taken care of in the correct way.

I noted too that things for the ATSA grades at MACC and the Airport side of things look grim to say the very least in the next 5 years.

Very very grim.

To summarise personally I'm glad that management are getting out and about (makes a change from the old regime) and I think we were all mostly glad at MACC for the chance to talk to the organ grinder for once. Even if what he said is, quite frankly, very bad news for likeminded souls to I.

Niteflight01, Could you amplify what very very grim means?. It might mean that ATSA staff from Manchester have to be posted elsewhere, but thats life as a mobile grade!.

It certainly doesn't mean they will be posted elsewhere.

From what I understand (which isn't much as usual) the ATSAs have two choices.

Firstly, they can apply to move elsewhere now. Or the alternative is to take redundancy when the move happens as the company will be left with no choice.

The actual quote was, in the meeting I was at : "There will be no place for the Manchester ATSAs at Scottish".

I know that's not very nice if you're one of the people concerned, but (as you eluded to above) at least they're being honest about their plans - some of our current managers will say anything to keep their immediate audience happy.

Agreed 1261 - as I said - even if the news wasn't all good for my colleagues at least management were being totally open and honest about it. That certainly makes an excellent change and a definite improvement over the old regime :)

niteflight01, There isn't a place for Scottish ATSA's at NPC Scottish either, so the Manch ones needn't feel left out!
A lot of people have their heads in the sand up here :(

Local Paper

The link didn't work but I can well image how people are feeling up there.

Saying that the end of the ATSA grade has been on the cards for 20+ years so I'll believe it when I see it.

Let's hope I never ever see it.

niteflite01 (Quote)

"even if the news wasn't all good for my colleagues at least management were being totally open and honest about it. That certainly makes an excellent change and a definite improvement over the old regime."

I think you have been sucked in niteflite01 ; so you are happy to be told you are going to be shafted?
It really is time our Union chappies got their act together and started to stand up for the staff instead of being brainwashed by the "Management"

I didn't say I was happy with what was said - in fact I said quite the opposite. But being told we are getting shafted means we can do something about it. And something about it we shall do.

That is as opposed to not being told we're getting shafted until it's far too late for any action to be taken.

At least we finally seem to be getting into some sort of informational loop - albeit after some vigourous prompting.

The mechanics of the Wednesday meeting were interesting.

Firstly , nobody knew of any visit (not even the watch managers) until somebody spotted a memo on a notice board by one of the lifts late on the Friday afternoon.
We were then required to give notification of our desire to attend together with a contact number.

Small groups - carefully selected by management - were than given 30 minute slots.
Note taking was extensive with questions and their originators being noted by the visitors. The CEO stuck to his script with barely eyecontact according to many.
Meanwhile Human Resources filled in some detail and insisted that redundancy terms for ATCOs would not be available.

With so many meetings , it's taking a while for the whole picture to become clear but the general view is that it was of little value and many staff are making plans for their exodus from NATS.
It's also worth mentioning that most of us didn't attend because we knew nothing about it.

Colleagues are receiving interesting and conflicting legal advice about our job mobility and redundancy . Luckily a number of spouses are in the legal profession so for now our advice is free!

macc. Interesting to read about the way the meetings were held. One could say they were giving most staff a chance to have their say in small groups ... or you could say they wanted to dominate the meetings so broke you down into small numbers.

Meeting notice. .. What did the staff survey say about communications ? Yet again we prove that senior management are either not interested in the lessons from that survey or not capable of learning. Answers on a postcard to ...

Legal advice on mobility ? I had a few years industrial relations work and would lay a very heavy wager you have no option. The terms and conditions of your employment and your appointment letter and decades of custom and practice say you will move under the Employee Handbook terms. No ifs or buts.

For those looking to get redundancy. Voluntary redundancy is not an option. They won't let you go. You resign. You won't get constructive dismissal because you are a mobile grade. ATCO flexible retirement ? NATS can say no.

When we moved to Swanwick there was a lot of initial uncertainty. The final package was a big improvement on the initial terms and most people are content with their lot.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear.

Yep - a good account macc2.

One of my colleagues attended the first meeting and was told nothing of the future plans and there was certainly no mention of the specifics that were heard in the second meeting which I, at the risk of "outing" myself, attended. That surely isn't good enough?

Some people - who asked very directly and bluntly - were told whilst another whole group weren't.

Also, I don't think the groups were as carefully selected as it would seem though they were far too small and yes, the notification of the meetings was poor (a letter on the top desk and an email - who reads their emails???? - wasn't enough I don't think for such a major event). Certainly a few of my colleagues I was there with are well known on the unit as having forthright and perhaps contraversial-to-management views. So if some sort of vetting did take place it didn't work or wasn't at all apparent on my occasion.

Legally I'm not sure we have a leg to stand on sadly. And it does pain me to say so. We're a mobile grade and thusly, as I understand it (thanks to one of those legally minded wives mentioned) where we work is pretty much at the sayso of the powers that be within reason.

Incidentally, most of the ATSAs I have spoken to are banking on the redundancy package and are not going to move units before the proposed move oop north - only those in the training section seem to have been mentioned as moving to MACCNerc by management and I suspect that is subject to change.

NF01
So what are you going to do? Go "Ooop North"? or stay int'tower:confused:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

Bigears I dont think anybody has their heads in the sand . What would you suggest the ATSA's do , it's well and trully out of their hands .

Mr Everrit should have thought before he opened his gob because I think if it's true that there will be no ATSA's at all then I hardly think they ( ATSA's) will hang around until NPC is up and running so they ( Nats ) could find themselves undermaned and in the brown smelly stuff

niteflite - I like the acronym. If we just add an S at the end then MACCNERC S could become the unofficial but universally used description of the new centre in Scotland (S).

I believe that during one of these "evenly balanced" meetings Mr Everitt was asked the following.....
If the company was "conversing" with another overseas ATC provider with the aim of ceasing their recruitment of NATS ATCO's.

His response was to deny this.

Some members of staff have reason to believe that there is definitely truth behind this question and Mr Everitts response was therefore untrue.

Can anyone elaborate upon this?

chig - I'm lucky I suppose in the respect that when the time comes to up sticks and move north I'm willing to do so if I really have to - being a young-ish whippersnapper and all ;)

That doesn't mean though that I don't understand and support my colleagues of all grades 110%.

The ATCOs that do TWR / APP are at least assured of being at Manchester for the next few years - I'm not sure when the contract is up for renewal again but any prospective ATS provider looking to take over the Aerodrome side of things will need ATCOs from somewhere.

Although we are a "mobile grade" I understand with changes in the European laws if you have legitimate reasons which require you to continue employment at your current place of work , they are unable to push the mobile grade issue any longer.

Im not sure of the ins and outs of it but it is fairly recent, so would be worth looking at the new rules brought in to with it I think.

flower ..

a rather large flaw in that argument is that your curent place of work will no longer exist .. it will be shut ... closed .. not there any more .. gone north ...

Yep I understand that , what im trying to say is that they have to protect your right to stay at a certain place if personal circumstances dictate it , thus the mobile grade issue is one that is now a little obsolete under new Eupropean laws. So if you need to stay at a place and no job exists there any longer you would have to be amply compensated.

I don't know the ins and outs of it but already someone in NATS management has raised that issue regarding a different set of circumstances but to explain why they are no longer able to do something that was originally in the Staff manual.

Its worth investigating all avenues for those who may have to lose their jobs.

The current UK law is that where the place of employment is changed, the post may be made redundant. A post may be deemed as unsuitable if the distance to travel is too far, and there is no mobility clause in the employee's contract. An employment tribunal would ultimately have to decide whether or not the employee could be reasonably expected to travel that distance, and thereby decide whether or not a redundancy payment is due.

If redundancy is due, then NATS could in theory apply the minimum as laid down in law. This depends on age and length of service and is calculated on the basis of complete years of service with the employer up to a maximum of 20 years.

The amount of the payment is:

Other considerations when calculating a payment are that:

This information comes from ACAS and should not be taken as a firm legal position. NATS could of course offer enhanced redundancy terms, as it has in the past, but would not be obliged to by law.

ATSA jobs
 

One option to make all Atsa grades redundant would be to create Atco 4/5 posts for all Atsa staff----------- and , hey presto--no shortage of Atcos , no Atsas, and everyone happy :O

Atsa staff are already about to undertake Atco tasks @ Scottish Centre due to the volume of traffic.

Just a thought! :p

Sorry Radar but we might have to disagree on your interpretation of the law.

The foundation of our claim to redundancy considers
Bass Leisure v Thomas 1994
and then the judgement made in the Appeal Court after
High Table Ltd v Horst and Others
Plenty of internet sources available!

We haven't really been mobile since the CAA took over from the Dept of Trade.

And how many senior managers in Nats would be overjoyed at being moved to the arsehole of nowhere.

None!

So all ATCOs at Manchester that dont want to move dont.

There are plenty years before the move giving everyone that does not want to go plenty time to formulate plans that will suit there individual needs.

MACC2 ... please read my post again. I did not claim to interpret the law. I am not qualified to do so. I passed on the information from ACAS as I clearly state at the end of my post. :hmm:

If, as you say, there is no mobility clause in our contract, then redundancy would be a possibility.

Wonder what a 45 year old MACC ATCO with 25 years service will do with his £6500 statutory redundancy pay ???

Did anyone being made to move from LATCC to Swanwick investigate their rights ?? Did anyone get redundancy ?? Or do we actually have a precedent now set and an expectation from NATS management ??

Are you referring to West Drayton or Swanwick jocko0102 ?? :}

Sorry guys, but you seem to be missing the basic fact that any enterprise as large as McNerc means "local development means local employment for local people", and that will apply from operational day one of McNerc.

For sure, there will be a few senior bods in place to ensure that things run smoothly for an interim period, but, with the exception of atco's and engineering, the rest of the staff will be local;
1- because it's cheaper than paying for anyone on a higher pay scale to relocate from Manchester.
2 - because, with the greatest of respect to atcas UK wide, ATCAs can be recruited anywhere, and trained locally and cheaply.

Sorry if that hurts, but it's fact, that when Manchester area is at McNerc, the vast majority of EGCC ATCAs will not be, and why should you be?

Dear NikNak,
Haven't stop laughing yet from your post.
Are you from Royston Vassey??? " A local shop ( centre) for local people:oh:
You know as well as I do that McNERC is a complete waste of money on a political fudge. It all should be at Swanwick, which with the right will & managers, it would be !!:ok:
NATS completely underestimate the strenghth of feeling at MACC & I'd guess round about 85% of the ATCOs have no intention of going North. As for the cheap disposable ATSAs ( yes the name wuz changed from ATCAs decades ago) I'm sure they'd be happy to leave for the deckchair franchise at Southport.
You are displaying the exact attitude why no-one wants to go north:ok: :ok: :ok:
Nice wind up though,

I'm going to leap to the defence of the ATSAs here wind-up or not - niknak - to be honest I don't hear many of the Manch ATSAs complain about it anyhow - and certainly not on this thread?

I don't think your line "Sorry if that hurts, but it's fact, that when Manchester area is at McNerc, the vast majority of EGCC ATCAs will not be, and why should you be?" is valid. If you were told your job was being moved and you, as a mobile grade, expected to be part of that move but instead were told get out now or take the redundancy in 5 years - you'd be a bit miffed I suspect?

They should be there becuase it's their job being forcefully taken away - according to you to be replaced by cheap, easily trained and localised labour. Not really fair is it? (Oh stop me - I'm going all idealistic again :D )

It's not a case of the geography at all - at the base level it's a simple case of people losing their jobs. And even you can surely see the sadness and slight injustice in that? A sign of these economically pressurised times and seemingly accepted by all assistants at MACC it may be - but still sad nonetheless - especially for those involved who aren't near the retirement age and have no deckchair awaiting :)

Apparently the ATSA grade is doomed anyhow with the introduction of some "OTS" technology. So it's not just going to be a MACC problem my friend. Oh no. If you're an ATSA then there are ever-gloomier times ahead - apparently.

(As a disclaimer I'd just like to say that I've heard all of this about the ATSA grade from the year dot so I'll believe it all when I see it)

I hope the ATSAs are your unit realise how much you value them for when their turns comes.

To drag this back onto topic a little more - the problem is ATCOs - the one grade NATS as a company shouldn't be looking to lose (or scare off to Canada as a few bloody good ATCOs from MACC / EGCC are doing at the moment) and as Mr A Tis (Are you a colleague of mine I wonder?) has said - feelings are running very very high at the moment with a great percentage of the staff at Manch very very anti-move North.

Whilst some of the ATSAs have gracefully accepted their inevitable demise I'm glad to say the ATCOs have not, and, I suspect, will not.

Interesting days ahead I feel.

On the subject of being a mobile grade. Doesn't MACC have a considerable number of staff who have moved into the unit from other units whilst either valid or to be given another chance to validate if unsuccessful at other units. I think it's a bit rich to now try to argue that the grade is not mobile because the destination is not to everyones' liking!

It has been common knowledge that the 2 centre strategy was the favoured outcome and that at least some of MACC would move north to Prestwick. Indeed it was an integral part of PPP that McNerc would go ahead so no real surprises there then. For once management are sticking to their line just as they did with Swanwick.

Yes it is uncomfortable to be forced to move-I know cos it's happened to me twice but it is not the end of the world-life does go on even if the second salary earner does take a £12k drop in income. At least moving north you will be moving to an area with a lower cost of living.

I guess there will now be loads of people volunteering to come south who would have kicked and screamed if NATS had tried to post them compulsorily but hey you're welcome anytime. But does the organisation have the capacity to lose validated staff in large numbers only to have to re-train them at LACC- I think not.

NATS as an organisation has actually been very good to all employees when it comes to trying to accommodate staff moves when requested and now may just be pay back time as far as they are concerned.

Unfortunately this is not what our contract of employment says. We are a negotiated grade and therefore the Employee Handbook and any other agreements made with the Trade Union on our behalf (e.g WPP) form each individual ATCO and ATSAs contract or terms and conditions of employment.

Apart from a small list of grades in the Employee Handbook (which do not include ATCOS and ATSAs), all other NATS employees are liable for transfer to any part of the British Isles in the course of their employment.

In the event that you are offered a post in another part of the country, then refusing to move would probably not give you grounds for redundancy. You have agreed to be liable for transfer and the company is exercising that clause. If you didn't move, then you may in fact be effectively resigning.

250Kts talks a lot of sense and reality on this issue.

We can go round in circles all day long about Assistants/Controllers and mobile grades etc.

However i would suggest that if we were being moved near to Edinburgh then most people would be happy BUT we are not.

We have a fantastic standard life at Manchester.

The city and its attractions/facilities/what it has to offer etc plus being next to a major international airport is the reason a lot of people do not want to move.

Prestwick has nothing to offer us and Glasgow ( a city i know very well ) has plus points but not as good.

Also something that i have witnessed many times in Glasgow (and other Scottish cities) is a hatred from some people to the English and the Sectarian element in and around Glasgow.

People down here are pissed off at being moved somewhere they really dont want to go.Swanwick aint great but its better than the other direction.

For most people down here including me (a great big ugly Jock) the move north will not enhance our quality of life but reduce it .

We are not against working with the guys and gals from Prestwick but i can assure you there is a great deal of unrest at moving up there.

jocko,

I understand all the points which you make but as the saying goes "all good things come to an end".

I speak regularly to ATCOs at ScOACC,many of whom are English,and I have never heard any suggestion that it is anything other than just another area in which to live/work and certainly no suggestion of anti English feeling (except when it comes to sport of course).

There is no rush of people wishing to leave ScOACC and of course when people have failed to validate it is often a first choice for an alternative posting and we don't then see loads reapplying to come south again.

Staff at LATCC were pissed off at moving to Swanwick but we got on with it. We lost a major city and a few international airports but people are coping. Every city has good and bad points-there are only a few roads in Southampton I would walk down at night.

No you won't find a Knutsford or Wilmslow within 10 minutes of work but plenty of affordable and luxurious housing within 30 minutes and Glasgow is only around 35 minutes away for those who crave the city life.

I suspect the longer the anti-McNERC feeling goes on the less sympathy you will find you have throughout the organisation and hence the inevitable will become even tougher to manage both for the individual and for the organisation as a whole.

Nastynas,
I would suggest that the ATSA's will hang around in the hope that a large redundancy payment appears- there are not many jobs around here that pay as well :(
Bummer for the staff that have served with dedication for many years but are too young to contemplate retirement.

Ayr_man,
unfortunately NATS don't take the enlightened view that the IAA take- I noticed recently that they had taken someone who may otherwise have been made redundant and placed them on a controllers course- 'sink or swim' I guess, but better than no choice at all.

Unless you know differently, the only ATCO task that ATSAs soon take on will soon disappear once EGPH get a strip printer. Its hardly a task that demands much thought anyway- just a knack of being (two) one-armed paperhangers! :)

With all this talk about the legality of a move to JERC (Jock en route centre) has anybody thought about the idea of NATS suposed to be a "Family orientated organisation?"
We have many families at Manchester living south of the city with extended and often elderly relatives much further south. A trip to my parents takes three to four hours now, a move to Scottish would double that.
My wife works in an industry that does not employ anybody north of where we are at present so if we both go to Scottish we end up nearly halving our income until she finds another job in the Prestwick area, with unemployment up at 16% in the area I sugest that may not be as easy as those in the cosy offices down south may think.
When the two centre strategy was first thought of the idea was to move MACC south, I can only assume that management waited to get the backing from the Trade Unions for the new Scottish centre then changed the goalposts (not for the first time)
It is of no use whatsoever the ATSAs saying that they will not go to Scottish as this is exactly what Mr Everet whans to hear, much cheeper for them but it really is time that the ATCO's got off their backsides and really started shouting from the highest. No decision is irrevesible and if enough ATCO's make enough of a fuss you never know...
Of course it may help if Prospect was run for the membership rather than for the union officers. So many times I have heared ATCO's say they would be better represented by PCS. The engineers certainly would not have been s**t upon by the ATSA's like they were by their own union.
I have no problem with working at Scottish, no problem with moving but every problem with the thought of having to move so far away from my family and the real risk of the only option being commuting on a 6 day basis in order to maintain our standard of living.
I know and like many people from all grades at Scottish and do not want this to be a dig at them but if there is going to be little room for the ATSA's from Manchester because of electronic strips etc will that not also mean that the ATSA's from Scottish will be equally vulnerable?
Come on you ATCO's from MACC ans SCATCC, use your muscle, tell managemaent what a pile of s**t the Spanish system is when you take your little trip to Espana, it will at least delay the whole project.

Whiterose, Yes, equally shafted :{

White Rose,

I take it therefore that your request for a move to LATCC or Swanwick has been on the table for some considerable time then due to the travelling distance to see your parents and that your partner getting a job down here is not a problem. Or is it that you have a very nice way of life thank-you that mustn't be disturbed. Well get into the real world. You have, as an ATCO in NATS as near to a job for life as it is possible to get nowadays and the employer can't afford to continue with 4 ATC centres in the UK. In order to maintain your T&Cs they have made a corporate long term decision-just as they did at LATCC.

As for the ATSA grade there will always be a need for a small number within the operation probably highly skilled and also highly paid but we have to face it that technology is going to take over the tasks,even the ATCO one eventually and redundancies will be inevitable in all grades. It's just the timescales which are different.

You are grasping at straws to say the Spanish system is not up to the job without seeing it and properly evaluating it and how long would you like it delayed by-just until you can retire and then stuff everyone else??????

Let's face it the staff in NATS missed the boat 5 years ago when PPP was first muted and your volunteer union reps were lobbying against it but what did we as a workforce do to fight it,NOTHING.

We are now reaping the rewards of that inaction as a commercial attitude is introduced into the company. There are plenty of opportunities outside of NATS for those who really want to go but for those of us who don't/can't then we have to make the best of it-as 500 already have moving to LACC and the staff from OKS are having to do now. What makes MACC so different????

250 Kts

Couldn't agree more with you about the correct time to tackle the whole problem but 5 years ago we were still fighting apathy within all grades. You are absolutely correct that we should have fought this harder and that we are now seeing the results of PPP but what makes it worse is that we are only seeing the BEGINING of the result of privatisation, there will be more to come for all grades, unfortunately.

Yes, I do have a very nice life up in Manchester and, like you would probably have not relished any move away from where I was working but "what makes Manchester different" needs a reply.
When Latcc moved to Swanwick you moved from a non too pleasant area of Greater London to the South Coast.( Yes I know there are some fantastic areas fairly close by but the immediate area? give me a break) Many of you were already living part the way there already. Your partners will no doubt have picked up similar jobs on similar money and your equity alone will probably have bought you a very nice little pad close to work.
If Macc moves to Scottish the only advantage we have is the relative cost in housing, other than that we lose all round.
This move has not proven to be economic sense, if it had we would have been shown the figures. The move has been brought about as a result of privatisation...strange how the Ayr MP was so anti ppp untill the carrot of the new Scottish centre was dangled.

One final point, you are correct in saying that the Spanish system may be OK and that we cannot make our minds up on it without seeing it. My point is that management still need our goodwill to make this work and that we should not just throw away these oportunities to stand together