I've been watching this exchange with some interest, and have refrained from commenting so far. All I will do is post a comment from another thread which concerns the use of 'Expedite'. One poster wrote the following:

Quote

And when I was at the college, expedite wasn't permitted, they'd much prefer to screw you up by getting that left hand orbit in

Unquote

Good appreciation of modern practices??:p

this is a two sided debate now

some area some apr

i came out of the place in 1991 so can't comment on many staff at this time

steph hello we were 73 together

ideas on subject would be more helpfull if area or approach were stated and a little less of the nasty comments and more constructive is the direction to go

ps (fiona hello to you i'm on c watch now)

Errrr........

Sorry to interrupt but back to the question asked, when I was down at PPSC I was lucky enough to hit upon a great bed and breakfast that was very quiet and proved instrumental in getting this non-academic through my ATPL exams in the first sitting by having somewhere to study.

Its called the Willowdene Hotel on Grande Avenue, its a stones throw from the beach (for those long walks to clear your head) its run by Mary & Roger and amber the cocker spaniel. The food was great and is a 5 minute car journey from the airport.

I was last there in 1999 but I cant imagine the place changing much (apart from maybe the decor).

The place is very clean and all rooms have their own En Suite etc etc. They also discount if you book for the duration of your course.

You can get them on 01202 425370

ding ding...........box!

CATC knockers and bwatchbabe and Mr Grubby in particular.

I am appalled and disgusted at the garbage being written about CATC by those who very obviously do not have the faintest idea what they are talking about.

I DO know what I'm talking about as I was an instructor at CATC for several years. I have since successfully returned to operations and hold a validation in approach radar. I work at the busiest airport in the region and had no trouble revalidating in the MER.

I believe you are moaning about the Area side of CATC (not my area of expertise admittedly) but all you are doing is perpetuating the half truths and lies that the ill-informed and petty minded already believe. In my time as a CATC instructor I learned a huge amount about being an ATCO that I had forgotten since leaving as a Cadet. I don't just mean the pedantic little things but some pretty important pieces of info. As a result of my CATC tour I am now a much better ATCO than I was before going there.

The college is only as good as the instructors. By continuing to slag it off in this way YOU are a part of the PROBLEM not part of the solution. How is CATC to recruit quality instructors if the widely held perception is that the place is full of has-beans and "the detritus of ATC"? I can assure you that this is NOT the case.

Like the Airports side, the vast majority of my Area bretheren were motivated to be good instructors (well, as motivated as anyone in NATS these days) and able ATCOs. Of course there are one or two individuals who might be considered less competent but can you honestly say this is just a CATC problem? I can speak from personal experience and assure you that all NATS ATCOs receive vastly better training at CATC than thos from the rest of the world.

If you want a better standard of CATC instructor and, by your logic, a better standard of Trainee then put you money where you over active mouth is and go there yourself. I would remind you, however, that the best operational ATCOs (don't get excited, I doubt you fit into that category however much you might think it yourself) seldom make the best instructors.

Speaking as a very recent member of a successful ACS2 course, I'd like to thank all the instructors both on my behalf, and on behalf of my colleagues, for getting us through the college and getting us through what at the end of the day is a very difficult course. Maybe the college isn't perfect, but as Partly Achieved said, it does work. The instructors work their nuts off for us and ultimately it's SRG which dictate to the instructors what they can and can't teach us, so why not let off some steam at them? As for you BWATCH'BABE', how hypocritical can you get calling people unprofessional? We students come on this forum and do you think it does our confidence any good seeing people like you calling us 'rubbish' (as your partner in crime Mr_Grubby called us)? Surely you're the unprofessional one in all this?

More recently than you would imagine, I feel! ;)

As aanother recent product of the college, I'd like to ask is it not the system that's at fault, not the college itself?
The instructors do their job and do it well. They give us the instruction and advice needed to pass the course. In general they do it well, there is the odd one who doesn't, but there always are people who aren't up to the job they do, no matter where you are, in ATC or not.
As for validating us new trainee's, that's up to the OJTI's. If we struggle, it's up to you to help us pass. Don't blame it on the college, they've already done their bit.
The problem is that they have to teach from MATS Pt1, and pinch a bit from every NATS unit MATS Pt2. It can't be solely based around one unit.

Finally thanks to ALL the instructors at the college, you made what is the hardest thing I've achieved so far in my life good fun!!

dontdoit

a lot more recently that you think

AlanM - is my cover blown? Don't mention names though.

Nice to see some former SATCs standing up for their tormentors. I is a great feeling to see the people you have invested a lot of time and effort in getting through the college finally validating. Luckily they don't all turn out like bwatchbrat and Mr Gormless!

regards

Granny

GS - blown a while back!!!

No names will be mentioned.........as long as you can guarentee my anonymity!!!!:cool: :D ;)

tee heee

GS
As you say, nice to see former students (sorry, they are now "trainees") standing up for the CATC system. I would not maintain that CATC is perfect - nowhere is, but Mine's a Double is quite correct. We should be looking at the whole system from Day 1 to validation. CATC is just a part of that system, and unless it is "seamless" and co-ordinated then there will be discontinuities which may adversly affect the trainees (and their long-suffering OJTI's).

The College (and the other ATC training establishments) teach what SRG say has to be taught. If this is not meeting unit requirements then there needs to be serious discussion between the interested parties. If the units are not taking freshly scrubbed trainees from the College and putting them straight into the validation training process then they are making life difficult for themselves and the trainees. Perhaps that aspect needs looking at as well. Some units are spectacularly bad at following up the CATC training with meaningful unit training. Others are very good.

One thing is certain, the system is not yet seamless or as near perfect as it could be. And if it does seem to be a bit "broke" surely we should be attempting to fix it in a constructive way, rather than destructively blaming one specific part of "the system".

Finally, never overlook the fact that CATC does not just service NATS units. The rating requirements are not simply for NATS personnel, they apply to anyone from anywhere in the UK who wants an ATC licence.

controllers - or lack off
 

:eek: here's a thought

The mighty NATS is now private, so what are they doing wasting time and money getting military controllers (both area and terminal) to retrain (over the full course) when many of them have already got experience at a high level.:confused:

surely this could be the answer to many shortage problems that NATS have!

College Instructors

Those guys are the best of the best of the best!

As AlanM would verify, Granny Smith was the Top Gun.

I personally am a !!!!!-hot controller (or is that just !!!!!?), and I couldn't face teaching 30 spotty little oiks about Aerodrome Lighting. I'd probably mess myself. Oops...I just have!

nats college of atc bournemouth
 

The CATC does use burnt out ATCOs who did not validate, esp at Area units. NATS is not going to bin these people. It has to be said that some of them do make a tremendous effort to contribute. Others live in a pedantic paradise which does not apply to the real world. The CATC currently uses three ATCOs who hold TC and en route validations. Management would probably pay lip service to agreeing that this number should be increased but would be wary of the extra costs entailed. If they could staff AREA without resorting to this ploy they would do so. There is little difficulty encountered in recruiting aerodrome ATCO instructors as for many it represents promotion from ATCO 3 to ATCO 2. They are desperately short of suitable AREA applicants. Why is this? Could it be that for most folk it is just not an attractive proposition?

Captain..........

".........I personally am a !!!!!-hot controller (or is that just !!!!!?)"

Well, now there's a question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D

Gonzo.

BTW, have a new waistcoat!

The main problem with NATS ATCO training is not the college. The biggest problem is AC training system at LATCC and probably now NERC. There is major cultural problems in the system and attitudes of the staff. Ten years of poor training have resulted in the failure to validate enough ATCO's hence our problems today. The job is probably no more difficult than at other units(don't give the usual Nerc reply to that especially those who have never been anywhere else, that covers about 97% of you), its the training and motivation of the staff to change their ways.
It has been badly managed and played with for years. Anyone who has validated if they our honest with themselves it was by trial and error on most occassions and not structured training.
Then you validate become an OJTI so your thoughts turn to, I had it hard and so will they.
Help the trainees don't let them crash and burn.

The stats will show no failures at LATCC or at Nerc. Why is that? posting them on to get proper training.

TC on the other hand are away ahead in their training system, structure and culture. Learn from them but I think it is already to late.

Hang on a second,
I think we all realise that it's not the fault of our esteemed colleagues, be they at the college of knowledge or at LACC that trainees aren't being turned out quickly enough.
Don't forget that Nats new about the staffing problems many years ago pre Swanwick, and did nothing to address the forecasted lack of ATCOs. Add this to a system which takes 33% more people to run, and the forthcoming retirement glut, and you've got a real problem which isn't addressed in the long term with any gusto by, you've guessed it, our old freinds the management.
If you're going to vent your spleen at anyone, direct it towards the incompetent mob on level 4 who continue to firefight rather than actually invest in the long term in any real way.
Remember also it is not the fault of us fine people in Swanwick that trainees are holding on the wings for 1 year on average, that's been agreed by the union to get them into the staffing numbers to cover for the shortage of ATSAs. Now, before anyone starts mouthing off about the value of wings training, remember, it's not the interesting, challenging role it was at LATCC when you did it. Ask an LACC assistant and they'll tell you that.
The real problems regarding training at both the college and at the units wear suits, pick up whopping great bonuses and call themselves management when in reality they would fiind it hard to manage a !!!!!

Captain

How awfully nice of you to say so - must be a mis-ident (as I remember not all that uncommon during your radar courses!!).

Nice to see some sensible discussion for a change.

vwatchtc

Yes there are a number of the ATCOs you describe at CATC and you make my point at the end - if the ATCO public at large continue to hear that it is a dead end posting and that only the "dross" go there then they are not likely to volunteer themselves. I would encourage all ATCOs to go to CATC for a liaison visit. I suggest you'll almost certainly be very surprised at how much it has changed.

The other posters have also hit the nail on the head - it is a lack of planning and investment and the management commitment to invest in training people properly that is the problem and continues to be the problem not just in the UK.

cheers

Granny