Working hours
 

Hi all ATCO's out there, me, a mere driver, heard one day that at a certain airport somewhere in Europe people spend up to 3 hours behind their scope because of a lack of staff.
People have lunch behind the mike as well because there's nobody to relieve them.
I know those hours are unacceptable, but can you shed some light on what the norm is, and what can be done in exceptional circumstances?

Thanks.

Just in case they are too shy to come forward (or do not have time for Ppruneing, I'll start off by saying it is not the UK.

Z

The longest you can work without a break is 2 hours then you are required by law to have a 1/2 hour break from operational duties. I guess the only reason for breaking these rules would be in the case of an emergency, but certainly not just because you are short staffed.

Wow!
 

It would be nice to have rules like that!

Down here is Oz, it's recommended that we have a 15 minute break every 2 hours, but not legislated. We have rosters everywhere that require single man ops on night shifts and significant periods of singleman operations during 'core' hours.

Most positions are singleman operations from 2100-0600, which means no breaks. It's appalling running to the cr@per hoping no one calls!

What a luxury you guys have on the smaller colder island.

Bottle of Rum

"People have lunch behind the mike as well because there's nobody to relieve them"

I know that in many places in Sweden (And allso some places in Norway at certain times of the day), you have towers that are 1-man operated, not even a flight data assistant. I know that at Trollhättan/ESGT the controller work 8 straight hours without rest.
Luch is consumed in the hot seat. The traffic load is low at ESGT, but still......... :confused:

What one has to bear in mind is, that the customers create a demand, and ATC has to deliver the required service, no matter what the staffing level is. There's the constant pressure to minimize delays, to improve services (more direct routes), to keep costs low, to cope with the traffic increase, and still be able to deliver the services required.
So what happens first, if ATC agencies are understaffed?
Thinning out the roster, longer time on the sector without breaks (even beyond 2 hrs), resorting to single manned operations at certain times, going to the minimum with leave and days off. Assistants? Not required anymore, controllers can do this themselves (plus saves personnel costs). Planners? Coordinators? Scrap 'em (saves personnel costs as well). 7 hour single manned shifts in towers? Not a problem (and guess what: saves personnel costs again!).
And only when the staffing level has reached such a critical stage, that even none of the above mentioned cuts can ease it anymore, only then the customers are being affected (keeping sectors combined and tightening flow control with more delays resulting).

Aren't we supposed to get a half-hour break after any period on duty?

That's what our OPM seems to think......

But what is legally acceptable? I live a happy, (relatively) sheltered life, protected as I am by a comprehensive ruling about Work and Resttimes, is there anything similar for ATC?
I know it takes place, but is it legal?

S76Heavy

Depends where and who's laws. In the Uk, max 2 hours in the seat and minimum 30 mins break. Simple. When I was in the middle east a couple of years ago, 3 hour stints were common but usually with much longer breaks afterwards (even the next 3 hours on nights!). Here in Switzerland, it is not uncommon to work a little over two hours (although with at least one change of position) with another two after a 20 minute break. All legal in their own way.
:cool:

S76H

You'll find the "SRATCOH" rules at the end of http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP670_A05.pdf The entire document is about 2.2MB in it's entirety but I think the bit you're interested in is Annex D (?)

These are the basis upon which rosters are compiled and service is delivered in the UK. Different ATSPs may use these rules different ways according to the service they offer (or are contracted to) e.g. closing ATC for fatigue breaks or providing relief or indeed augmenting the maximums to give relief every 90 minutes etc.

1261 - I thought OPM calculated minimum rest breaks according to where you were sitting (i.e. SRATCOH position or Enhanced Relief) and accrued breaks of 1 per 4 or 1 per 3 minutes worked respectively (?) [In any event, there is a debate to be had as to whether the way this is calculated is or isn't in the spirit or letter of CAP670 - but I'll leave it to those who know more (just about everyone) to have it ....

Hope this helps,

RT

Thanks all for your input. Very much appreciated. Judging from the number of views it was interesting to many other Ppruners as well.
Unable to comply as far as coffee and cakes are concerned, I'm afraid..:D

We have a dispensation from the CAA to work up to 4hrs without a break and the bit about light TFC only has been lost somewhere along the way. Oh to work in NATS!

Edited for v poor spelling!

To NATS you must come; I've never used a brake in the course of my ATC work! :)

Don't forget that most operational NATS ATCOs don't work their rostered hours anyway. Most will get to spend half of the nightshift at home in bed, some will get all of it.

And for our last post......

A reaction you will not see is denial because what I posted is true. Funny how those who whinge about how hard a job it is and how underpaid they are don't mention this up-side to their job.

I am not the one suggesting I am underpaid or overworked. I am wondering where fire officers spend most of their night shift? Or Engineers monitoring systems etc....

If you are an operational ATC in NATS then I would suggest that you could find some of your extra staff by re-rostering the nights on to days to help you train your 60+ backlog of trainees.

But I doubt you are. An Operational ATC

And of course nobody else in the entire world gets benefits in their jobs....do they?

dontshootme - you seem to have a problem with this but in doing so fail to understand the nature of air traffic and the rules regarding the rostering of controllers. Like most companies, NATS has agreements negotiated with its staff regarding length of shift, time between shifts, shift patterns, meal breaks and so on. Add to this the satutory requirements of SRATCOH and start to build your watch roster.

Air traffic, however, follows its own pattern dependent on time of the day. day of the week and, in some cases, weather patterns. Staffing has to, within reason, cater for the busy periods which means that during the quiet periods there may well be an excess of staff. It happens in other walks of life - look at your average charter pilot for example - working his bollocks off in summer but largely idle in the winter (I expect I'll get flamed for that :D )

So yes, there are perks in the job regarding hours but, it has to be said, not nearly as many as there were. (And I'm sure there are Swanwick controllers out there that can confirm that due to staff shortages that their 'perks' are virtually non-existant now.)

But just because some of us might get a few hours kip on a night shift does not mean that we don't have genuine concerns about aspects of the job and that we shouldn't air them on an ATC forum. Most ATCO's want to provide the best service possible. Also, for the record, I don't think I'm underpaid as a top of the scale ATCO 2 but I do feel that there are certian pay issues that should be addressed such as the length of the incremental pay scale and some unit grading issues.

So dontshootme, how about taking that chip of your shoulder, eh? I've no idea what you do for a living but (unless you are an MP :) ) I'm not going to slag off your chosen profession.

BALIX

Thanks for the well written response. You neatly slid the point away from what I was talking about.

Many occupations have busy and slack periods during the average working day. Most of these staff accordingly. Your local 24 hour supermarket does not have as many people rostered to be on at 3am as it does at 3pm, neither does your local hospital.

Most NATS ATC units do roster the same number of staff for 3am as 3pm. These staff then split the night shifts so that on some units they spend a whole nightshift at home in bed, whereas on other units they swap over at 2 or 3 in the morning. This is quite different from getting your head down during a quiet spell.

The issue of SRATCOH and time off between shifts is a smokescreen. The airlines manage to roster crews with similar legal restrictions, and they can do it on a day by day basis when necessary.

It is an undeniable fact that NATS is putting delays in to the system because positions are closed due to staff shortages.

How can this be justified when they are allowing controllers to abuse their working practices in this way?

QUOTE: Most NATS ATC units do roster the same number of staff for 3am as 3pm

Name one.

Traffictraffic wrote: "If you are an operational ATC in NATS then I would suggest that you could find some of your extra staff by re-rostering the nights on to days to help you train your 60+ backlog of trainees. "

A blindingly good idea, my boy....... which, funnily enough, was introduced some 28 years ago, certainly at Heathrow and LATCC and probably a good few other places. The watch is split and half the guys do day duties whilst the others do nights...

Next suggestion please.............

HD

I was on your side - for once :p

Well shoot you,it appears you are the one side stepping the issue,some of these shift times you refer to are in fact at my unit,official start times for the N shift,we have a variety of differing N's,to do precisely what is wanted by management and customer,that is to have staff available to match the traffic.I have said recently,that what may have happened in the past is all but finished in todays area units and given the increasing traffic levels and requirement to have more sectors open during N ops,any 'perks' as you perceive are going going gone.I don't know where you work,but as somebody who sits in front of a radar,I can assure you,when there is a busy eastbound flow through the night,is it not better for everybody concerned to have staff as well rested as can be before dealing with this workload,precisely at the time when the body feels least like doing it.As a proportion of staffing,it is well documented that N's are very efficient in the numbers of staff rostered versus the traffic loadings,any less and there would be delays through the night as well,and of course what you won't realise is that staff on N's make great efforts to attend even when on occasions not feeling at their best,because you know that there is nobody else to call on and you don't want to stuff your colleagues.

nats
I just don't see why ATCOs or anyone else should be getting paid for sleeping at home. Shiftworking ATCOs in NATS get paid an allowance as compensation. It's their responsibility to be adequately rested before going to work.
If someones not fit for work they shouldn't be there. Controlling air traffic when unfit to do so risks lives.

BEXIL160
If I'm wrong about the numbers rostered to be on then publish the correct numbers. While your at it you could include the numbers who don't do a full shift at their workplace on an average night.

You are wrong.

I repeat. Name a NATS unit that has the same number of staff rostered for 1500, and 0300.

You insist that this is true. Back it up. Name ANY NATS unit that does this.

Over.

In the US all facilities do it a little different to accomadate traffic. But in the enroute environment we staff slightly lower on the day shift, higher on the evening shift and then down to minimums on the midnight shift. The area that I work in we normally staff anywhere from 10 to 12 people on the day shift. 11 to 13 on the evening shift and then 3 on the midnight shift. We have 6 sectors that we can work. Four of them are full time open sectors for the day and evening shift, and two of them are part time... On the midnight shift we only have two sectors open.

All that said, we quite often go down to 9 or 10 people on the day and evening shifts when we are short handed due to vacation and sick leave. You normally have to go below this to get someone to call in overtime...

Again, this is ONE area in our seven areas in our center. Everyone has slightly different numbers. It is that way all over the US...

regards

Scott

PS. No one goes home on official time for the midnight shift. You are there for the duration unless you go home sick, and then you work with two people...

Dontshootme

Erm, no I didn't, your point was that ATCO's don't work their rostered hours. My response was about those claims. You also mentioned whinging about pay. I replied to that too.

With such an obviously incorrect statement like this, you blow your argument completely out of the water. My unit, ScACC, rosters ten on a night shift (plus a supervisor). The morning/afternoon shift will generally roster sixteen or more and they are supplimented by half a dozen day shifts. So in effect there are more than twice the number in during the day.

Grtting back to thos ten night shift workers, that number has been agreed by the usual process of negotiation between management and unions. I don't know what criteria they use to come up with this figure but I suspect it is based on providing enough staff to cover those nights when all the eastbound transatlantc traffic passes through our airspace. That generally arrives from 3 am onwards and the rostering reflects this: four of those ten night shifts come in at some God forsaken hour in the morning.

Of course, some nights we don't get the traffic as it is dependent on the weather patterns. Add to that the ever increasing problems of finding controllers with the correct validations to do band-boxed sectors and you may well see that it might just be a little tricky having staff in positions ONLY when required.

Hasn't happened on my watch for fifteen years years at least. And for your information, we used to have a load of bedrooms on unit - now we have one.

I'm not denying that there are a few perks regarding the hours we work. It is bound to happen when you try and combine a rigid shift pattern with a traffic flow that is only partly predictable. You will no doubt be delighted to hear that those perks are getting fewer and fewer but when they have gone altogether and the service has not got any better, what are you going to blame then?

BALIX
quote:
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I just don't see why ATCOs or anyone else should be getting paid for sleeping at home.
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So who was it I was listening to last week in your canteen discussing who was on an "first" night and who was on a "second".
One was also complaining that she couldn't sleep before coming in and that meant she always had to go to bed after a night shift - poor soul!

If I have got the numbers wrong, fair enough, but it doesn't alter the fact that ATCOs are at home when they are getting paid to be in at work.

In 'MY' canteen? I fear you must have misheard the people you were 'overhearing'. I know, for certain, that my watch do not operate a one night on, one night off policy and indeed never have done in twenty years. We used to get the odd gash night off a long time ago but not, as I said, for the last fifteen years. As for the other four watches, it does not happen either unless they are being VERY secret about it. As I said before, a number of night shift workers start at 10am, others start at 3am. Here, I suggest, is your 'first' and 'second' night.

The fact that you were in my canteen suggests you work within the NATS organisation. You also seem to have a big prejudice against controllers and, perhaps, other shiftworking staff.

Yes, poor soul indeed. Maybe you should try doing a couple of night shifts on the trot and see how they have the potential to f*ck up your life. Oh, and then do a couple more ten days later. Make dure that some of them are at the weekend or during the school holidays. Oh, and get a cat that likes to sleep on your bed in the most awkward position whilst you are trying to sleep it off.

If you read back through the thread, you will not see me complaining about the shifts we work, far from it. They suit me much more than 9-5 working could ever do. Your constant ascertation that ATCO's are a bunch of lazy bastards cannot, however, go unchallenged as it is patently not true.

BALIX
Could well be. Is the 3am start the actual start time of a shift on the roster, or do these people get paid from 10pm? Do the people who start at 10pm go home at 3am? Are they paid for the rest of the night?

As for your complaining about how tough it is sleeping when you work shifts, forgive me if I don't show much sympathy. Lot's of people work shifts and get paid a fraction of what you do.

Yes and no, in that order.

IF the traffic situation permits, a couple of them MIGHT get away. And no, their pay is not docked. Why should it be? Do firemen only get paid when ever there's a fire? I refer you to my previous messages as to why the traffic levels are only partly predictable.

I wasn't asking for your sympathy, I was just suggesting you try it sometime before making crass statements. You may also be interested to know that 'Shift Disturbance Allowance' makes up a small fraction of my pay, probably about 5%. That payment covers not just night shift but other shift elements like weekends and evenings. Oh, and here's the rub - if I was working in a non-operational job I would receive Non-Operational Supplement which is, surprise surprise, almost exactly the same as the Shift Disturbance Allowance. In effect, I'm not getting paid a penny more for shiftworking. And no, I'm not complaining about it, I mention it just to highlight another flaw in your argument.

I'm sure you will come back with more 'evidence' that ATCO's are a bunch of slackers and I'm happy to let you have the last say. However, I will say to any independent observers out there, do you trust the word of an ATCO with twenty years shiftworking experience with, admitedly, a vested interest or someone who bases his arguments on what he overhears in the canteen and who has, almost certainly, a huge anti-ATCO chip on his shoulder?

Don't Shoot Me;

There is a bit of a difference between the folks who work shift work at Burger King and those who keep aircraft apart. Now, if you want to talk about the folks who man the fire brigade or police departments who work shift work and don't get paid what there worth is, that is another. There are however issues with the skills that one must have to be a controller which the general populace just don't have...

How many folks REALLY can see in four dimensions, AND can work under stress at the same time?????

regards

A whole scenario painted of ATCO's working practices by somebody earwigging into 'canteen chit chat'!!!!
heard half a story,rembered half of that,add a double dose of exageration,stir up the remainder and what do we have? a rumour,only on PPRUNE folks.
Don't shoot me,have a look at your feet,both barrels,very messy.
Good night.

BALIX
I'll rephrase the question.
What time do those starting at 3am start getting their hours credited from.

nats

No. based on a lot of years in the organisation at a lot of different locations.
The overheard conversation was an illustration of what goes on. Nothing more or less.

svoigt
Two issues.
Firstly, that argument applies to many skilled jobs.

Secondly, it's not relevant when discussing about whether people should be allowed to cheat on their working hours. UK aviation suffers lot's of delays because of ATCO shortages. If some are not working the full amount of time they are being paid for, and this is regular and planned, it is simply unjustifiable.

The UK has significant delays at the moment because of controller shortages. The sooner these surplus staff are redeployed to areas where shortages do exist, the sooner they will validate and help ease the situation.

Don't shoot me;

First off, if this is indeed going on ( I have no knowledge of it ) then it is going on with managements knowledge and blessing. This makes it a past practice and thus is NOT CHEATING! It is just playing by the rules that are in place... If it IS happening, and IF management doesn't want it to happen anymore, then they can very simply enter into negotiation with the union and change it...

regards:)

don't shoot. Have you nothing better to do????? We had an exchange about rostered hours on another forum a few weeks ago and you were wrong then just as I think you are now.

If you are not an ATCO what has it got to do what working practices are used at different units?

I don't question why an airline rosters more pilots/cabin crew for a flight than it really has to and hence the additional cost to the ticket,so why are ATC any different?

I say it to you again. MOST NATS units are working their rostered hours. The "good times" ended years ago. There is little or no slack in the staffing levels. Now s*d off and find a different group of hard workers to have a go at.