WW2 aircrew in ATC
 

Just for historical interest I am trying to put together a list of ww2 aircrew who went on to become a civil ATCO/ATCA or other job within ATC. IF anyone can help please add to the list - name - aircraft flown - ATC unit (and any other information if possible i.e. squadron ATC role etc)

thanks a lot

MANY ex WWII aircrew served as ATCOS. It was my privilege to have worked with the following (that I can remember).
Fred Mann Hurricanes (during the BoB). ATCO at LATCC.
Ron Holton Lancasters (force landed in the Sahara at night whilst ferrying the Lanc out to India; took part in the 1000 bomber raids on Germany). Chief Officer ATC at Edinburgh.
Harry Dalton, ex SATCO at Jersey (flew Wellingtons).
There were many more, but my memory for names is bad. I'm sure many of my ex colleagues will expand the list !

Byron Jones - flew Mustangs from D-Day, de-mobbed at the end, recalled during Korean war and converted to Vampires, became ATCO at Southampton and Farnborough.
Bob Hutchinson - flew Spitfires during the war, had a few 'kills'. Told me he was doing an airtest one day in 1944 with no ammo; saw a dark shape go past with what looked like a flame from the rear (V1), turned and gave chase but couldn't catch it and had no ammo anyway. Became an ATC assistant at SATCC/LATCC serving at Uxbridge, Heathrow and West Drayton.
One of the senior controllers at LATCC during my period there (1969 -1971) was Des O'Connell who had a badly burned face picked up while flying in the war but I don't know what he flew.

Norman Alty, Lancaster Capt and won the DFC. Ended up as an ATCO at The Preston Area Control Centre Barton Hall. He was my next door neighbour and one of the reasons I ended up working the last 43 years in ATC:cool::cool:
http://www.49squadron.co.uk/personne.../detail/Alty_N

Peter Ward Hunt DFC and bar...Hampden, Manchester, and Lancaster pilot. Ended his ATC career as the SATCO at RAE Bedford.

AC "Lucky" Craven ATCO on London Airways at SATCC. Last surviving member of his bomber crew, hence his nickname.

Jimmy Birchall Deputy SATCO at Heathrow. One of the office ladies was German. Jimmy - a very polite gentleman - asked what she did in the war "I was in the Hitler Youth, what did you do? Jimmy: "I flew Lancasters". I don't think they spoke again!

Larry Curry, Ex SATCO Leavesden. He was badly burned but I don't know what he flew.

Dennis Cooper ATCO at various airfields. Flew with 617 squadron.

When I joined CAA in late '73 the vast majority of ATCOs aged c32+ were ex-military aircrew, those who were post-WW2 had in the main been either navs or signallers, but there was a fair sprinkling of ex-pilots.
Virtually all those who were 50 plus were ex-WW2 aircrew. For instance, on my watch at London Centre we had Dick Yeo a Fleet Air Arm pilot who had been on Arctic Convoys, Reg Prior and Jimmy Cox had been school buddies who met up again in a POW camp both having bailed out of burning bombers, Norman Whitelock had been a QFI at Bibury, Graham Stevens was one of several who had been trained at Pensacola in the USA etc etc.
There must have been hundreds of ATCOs who had seen wartime service as aircrew. Just mentioning those names above has made me think how much more respect those guys ( all were ATCO 1s ) were due compared with the plastic MBA type managers that NATS is full of these days.
A former member of Loki's cadet course was writing a history of ATC and he may well have information re WW2 personnel. He used to post here but I'm having a senior moment and can't recall his nom de plume.

Just did a quick search here under ATC History and found that the man's nom de plume is xpz67 - try sending him a personal message.

My late father Ken Crossley was RAF(VR) Air Gunner attached 34 then 31 SAAF, commissioned in Egypt then briefly 221 Sqd, then MT Officer Steamer Point Aden, took Demob mid '46 joined Vauxhalls at Luton, had a serious fall out with a Shop Steward, :ugh: rejoined Oct '46 (without advising Air Ministry of his problem at Vauxhall)

Then on rejoining became an ATCO following training at Watchfield Dec '46 - Feb '47, various UK postings finishing at Acklington Dec '50; left RAF and joined Airwork at Usworth as an ATCO meanwhile joining RAuxAF as ATCO later SATCO with 608 Sqd at Thornaby

Following closure of Usworth joined Crown Gents as an ATCO with the DCA in East Africa various postings Nairobi (Easleigh & West/Wilson), Dar Es Salaam, Tabora, Entebbe, Tabora again - his successor had fiddled the imprest account!!!, Zanzibar, Mombasa and finally Entebbe again where for a very short period he had the dubious pleasure of being the local (unpaid) Deputy Director :ugh:

Following a run in with the local Tax man, returned to the UK in March '66 to take up the 'Colonial Gentlemans' dream of running a Pub!!!:D

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

W.R.P. Perry.
Pete was the chairman of my final NATS selection board in 1979, and the ATCO i/c at EGCC. Another ex-Lancaster man and along with Norman Alty, a DFC. I was on the same watch as Norman who trained me in the tower.
We also had a gentleman called Ron Tuck, who, I believe flew Spitfires.

Mega respect to these guys.

Dick Stokes - Heathrow ATC. Ex Lancasters and a member of the goldfish club.
Also described landing with FIDO as the most scary thing he did in the war.

Also at Heathrow, among several others, was Paddy Haycock, who was IIRC a W/OP on Lancasters.

Ahh Paddy - great bloke indeed. One rainy, windy evening he was on AIR and he suddenly said: "Who's that avoiding flack over Richmond tonight?" A scared voice replied: "Is it heavy tonight London?"

Also Geoff Large, my first Sup at Heathrow. He flew Bomber a/c back from Canada but my brain is too shot to remember the salient details.

Dick Stokes was running the training office when I arrived at Heathrow in '72. I had no idea he was ex-Lancs.

HD Geoff Large? B25s I think....at least at one point during the unpleasantness.

OK Loki.. I recall Geoff telling us a story one night about flying said aeroplanes to the UK without some important paperwork - maps? Had us rolling around.

They were a great bunch, completely mad of course.

Sgt Jan Masat, 310 (Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF.

Jan worked at LATCC as an ATCA in the Training Section, and latterly the Information Section.

It is thought that Jan served in France before joining 310 Squadron. Their records list him as "pilot/link trainer instructor".

This is interesting, as he was the only person on the squadron's "ground staff" to be listed as a pilot.

Jan, as so many of his generation were, was tight-lipped about his wartime service.

Agree almost totally, but I cannot comment on 'these days' having been out of it for 9 years. Certainly a largely valid comment up to 2006.....

Is this British only, or are you interested in Yanks as well? I worked with a former U.S. A-20 pilot for a number of years in American ATC.

folkyphil

Jan was on FIR during my time on D&D, he kept us entertained during many of the long night watches! A remarkable gentleman who was a pleasure to work with. ISTR he had great difficulties occasioned by the soviet bloc.

Don Charlwood, Flight lieutenant RAAF.

A product of the Empire Air Training Scheme, he served a complete tour as a navigator on 103 squadron RAF, flying wellingtons, halifax's and finally Lancasters.

After the war he wrote his memoirs of his war service https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Moon_Tonight

Don then worked for 30 years for the department of civil aviation in Austalia (now Airservices Australia) as an Air Traffic Controller, as well as a training and recruitment specialist.

Don passed away in 2012, and is remembered by an award named after him given to the outstanding graduate of each trainee ATC course.

Shanwick
 

Early 80's Shanwick.
Jock Ellis - Spit and Typhoon
Roger Leyland - Spit
Bob Good - Sunderland
Alistair McKie/McKay - Wellington
There were quiet a few others but time and memory have let me down.
Apologies to all I have forgotten.
Great Guys.

While on a Cadet course in the 1960s I came across many controllers who were ex WWII aircrew. At Aldergrove was a Hugh(?) McGrath who walked with a limp. Apparently after his Halifax was shot down over France he walked across the Pyranees into neutral Spain nursing a broken leg!
Later at Southampton I met Denis Cooper (mentioned in a previous post above) and also Ron Hooper who had been a bomb aimer on Lancasters. The latter told an amusing story which I have retold many times. Apparently on long bombing missions some crews carried a large tin can for use when nature called. Anyone needing this would call on the intercom for it to be passed along. Anyone that is, except the poor rear gunner who could not be accessed in his turret. After several missions he complained that it was alright for the others but it just made things worse for him becuase he could hear the others passing the can around. Ever sympathetic, the rest of the crew decided to use a coded message and if they needed the can they would say, "Ron, you've left your light on". This worked for a while until one day a very angry rear gunner grabbed Ron by the throat and threatened to beat him up! When asked why he replied, "Because you are putting all our lives in danger by flying us around Germany with your light on. You'll get us all killed!"

Leopilot... Do you know what happened to Denis Cooper after Southampton? I drive past his old house every day and often wonder about him. He told a story about flying in bombers. One night over Germany he suffered what he politely called a "loose bowel" and grabbed a newspaper to employ as a toilet. He then "flushed" it down a tube used for dropping flares but somehow it "lit back" and he got covered from head to foot!! Another crew member said: "Crikey Denis you smell like a sh@t house", to which Denis replied "I am a sh@t house!"

Peter Ward-Hunt (ex Bedford) was a Flight Commander in 106 Squadron at Syerston.
His Squadron Commander was Guy Gibson who a few months later went on to command 617 Squadron during the famous "Dambusting" raid on the Mohne and Eder dams in May 1943.

Leo, I think your Hugh(?) McGrath was Harry McGrath. Walked with a stick, which is hardly surprising.

Super Dooper old stories, what? Some of my family live about 1 km from the Ruhr river......some live just outside Bielefeld [near the viaduct]. I wonder if we'll ever stop glorifying insane slaughter? No doubt next year there will be yet another obscure celebration to justify jingoism.

The insanity was total war, 055166k, forced upon the world by a monster culture that had to be defeated. No sane person revels in raining down death, but without those brave aviators and their sacrifices none of us would be here today. Lets celebrate our survival and make sure that the terrible events of the war do not happen again.

What a crass comment.

There are plenty of people on here who have relatives in London, Coventry, Manchester and probably knew people in Auschwitz etc etc.

Maybe you should remember you probably have freedom of speech due to people whose names are being remembered here.

I cannot see 'glorification in insane slaughter' in any comments above. Dear God.

I really hope you are a troll.

055166k.

I was stating a fact about Peter Ward-Hunt and his wartime service.

I was standing at the memorial at RAF Wickenby, near Lincoln on Thursday which commemorated 1076 young men, most of them teenagers who flew from there in defence of this country in its direst hour of need and now lie in graves all over Europe.

Last year I was at the site of the prison camp for Ukrainian women just downstream from the Mohne Dam most of whom were drowned in the ensuing floods in 1943.

I felt a lot of emotion but jingoism or celebration were not amongst them.

Brendan - Sorry I don't know much about what happened to Dennis Cooper. I left Southampton in 1972 and I believe he took over from me as SATCO for a short while but then left (retired?) not long afterwards. My abiding memory of him was one day at Southampton when an RAF Devon arrived carrying an officer of Air rank who was met with a guard of honour before being driven off in a staff car. Dennis, observing this from the tower, looked down and said, "Ah, it's old Tommy! Of course, he never got anywhere!"

leopilot
 

Before my time at Boscombe ( 83-86 ) there had been an ATCO named McGrath, can't recall his first name, who had some sort of 'gammy leg' as a result, I think, of what you described above.
Apparently a hard barsteward, according to the much younger ex-cadets who worked there, and he became Mayor of Salisbury.
He is mentioned, I think, in Max Hastings book on Bomber Command. My copy is in store so unable to check.

055166K

Stu, I think you've overstepped the mark with your comment - as others have said this thread is not about glorification of war, the OP asked a simple question and many of us have been pleased to contribute and recall those colleagues who had served our country during WW2.

There were a few blokes at Glasgow in my time there. John Clark, a watch sup was a Mossie navigator. I think the Satco Bill Bain (?) was a Lanc pilot, as was the training officer; can't remember his name. One of the assistants was crew on Whitleys and spent most of the unpleasantness as a POW.

Bill? I was scheduled to go to Boscombe after my Approach Radar course and he was to be one of my mentors but Mike Hunt (say that quickly) diverted me to Farnborough at the last minute as that was my final posting.

leopilot... thanks for that gem!

@ Loki
Bill Bain it was - Chief Officer, & the Training Officer was Bill Walton. The ATCA was Jim McCutcheon - he was an LAC on a 102 Sq. Whitley shot down in May 1940 & became a Caterpillar Club member after bailing out to become a POW for the duration - & a good bloke he was too :-)

My Watch SATCA at Heathrow, Bob Cook, was a Sergeant with 219 Squadron on Blenheims & is on the Battle of Britain Roll of Honour.

Ex-wartime aircrew in postwar ATC.
 

It seems difficult to tease out exactly when ATC became a sub-branch of GD post war, but Wiki gives:

"....[RAF] Watchfield was also involved in Air Traffic Control as the School of Air Traffic Control used Watchfield between 1 November 1946 and 10 February 1950 before moving to RAF Shawbury. [4]"

Clearly the obvious people to train as Air Traffic Controllers were the large number of aircrew (with ex-pilots and navigators being particularly suitable) who had remained in (or returned to) the RAF post-war, and for whom there were no longer flying posts available. Even when I transferred from GD(Pilot) to ATC in Apl '55, I think my Course at Shawbury was 100% ex-war aircrew: every Control Tower in the land could rustle-up at least one complete ex-bomber crew from its members.

This arrangement suited everybody; the new Controllers operated in a world completely familiar to them, they knew the layout of airfields like the back of their hands, circuit, approach aids and R/T procedures were second nature to them, and they had emphathy with the post-war aircrew (who were mainly their contemporaries). In a word, they were "naturals" for this new job, and they all "spoke the same language" as 'buddies'.

From the RAF point of view it was win-win too. At their wartime ITWs all had learned basic meteorology, navigation, signals, Theory of Flight, armaments and Administration and Organisation of the RAF - and they'd had years of hard and often dangerous experience to back it up. As I recall, it was only in the early '60s that the new recruits started coming in in any number; these now had to be taught ab initio all the skills that the Old Brigade brought with them gratis as far as the training organisation was concerned.

It is not surprising that there were hundreds of these old timers around until the time I retired in '72, when the inevitable clear-out had to happen, and the new boys and girls took over.

Danny42C.

I thought the School of Air Traffic Control was at Aldermaston between Watchfield and Shawbury but maybe Aldermaston pre-dated Watchfield.

John Woodbridge, known as Woo
 

When I joined at LATCC, Woo was a Chief Sector Controller.
I was told a story that he flew Wellingtons in the war and was caught in a search light and they dived to escape it.
During the pull out, the nav, was winding back the trim with both pilots pulling as hard as they could, the wings bent upwards.
They then dropped the bomb load at their target and the wings were written off back in the UK.

Apology
 

I apologise for my earlier post........respected pprune colleagues have made valid remarks. I was wrong......sorry.

055160

Full marks, you get my vote.:D