Heathrow - There are the helicopter routes over the Thames and then there's a SVFR clearance over Ascot, right? But as far as I know, there is no way of transitioning anywhere else. I could be wrong - it's been a while since I flew in London.

My point being is that by stepping down to a less restrictive airspace generally, transitions can be achieved anywhere and/or when traffic permits. This helps everyone, even IFR traffic.

When I flew into LAX earlier this year it seemed like we were on a closing heading for one of the westerly runways ever since flying over Vegas, and joined final approach at least 50 miles east of LAX. How does that work?

I'm a controller myself here in England and have often wondered about the differences in procedures and the way it's all done in the States. Forgetting the congestion within the US TMA's, my guess is that because of the very large, fairly empty, distances between the TMA's you can arrange/sequence the traffic much further out, plus design the procedures with a lot more freedom. Next time I'm near San Diego I'd love to pop in to SoCal Tracon and see how you guys do it.

My thoughts are that there are just too many regionals here in England, getting in the way of sequencing the London traffic farther out. Plus obviously the Paris/Amsterdam/Brussels/Manchester TMA's all fairly close by. Obviously this shows the regional's have enough traffic to get in the way, which is great, but they're all just a wee bit too densely packed here in little Blighty.

The messiness of the LTMA frightens me sometimes. Me reckons it would be one all mighty re-jig needed to fit in procedures for a third Heathrow runway.

Course now if they re-opened Wisley instead of having the third runway actually at Heathrow, they could utilise airspace which is presently un-regulated and 'close' Mig Alley.
There's already a motorway linking both airfields after all.

Yeah, and this appears to be the attitude that winds me up bigtime. There really is no need for such a huge amount of en-route airspace to be Class A.

Look at the Class A airway going from Southampton to Jersey as an example - it is often empty at say FL35-FL55 but you need a $20,000 IR to enter that piece of airspace.

Indeed, wrong.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2012-01-12.pdf

Not really in keeping with a continuous descent approach though surely? Leveling out at a low level and continuing for a long distance must be terrible for fuel efficiency. I'm interested to know if the FAA even have this on their radar? (Excuse pun.)

I'm not sure many here have disagreed with you as such, and apart from some willy waving statistics the London TMA, movements are still well down on 2007 or 8. Build the tarmac and we can make it work, and safely squeeze the best out of it. It's what we do. There is a LOT more sky up there than tarmac down here, and to answer the OP question, yes, there is the airspace. It may involve some moving of routes, holds etc. but you would have to build a LOT of runways before there wasn't a solution. Unfortunately all of this needs consultation...

Which brings me on to... What London needs for aviation and what London gets for it's residents will be two incredibly different things. A society that respects the rights of all it's members cannot easily replicate anything that can be done in places elsewhere (ahem, China; or even the US) and this is for the good of all, despite the obvious downside.

The discussion about airspace capacity in London demonstrates all that is good about the UK. Everybody has their say and everybody has the right to an opinion. We need aviation expansion for the good of the country though, and so let's hope the best compromise is reached sooner rather than later.

Class D anyone?

I'll see your D and raise you an E !

SGC

...or "Tesco Value Airspace" as a certain NATS college instructor calls it :ok:

Well, a third runway is really going to make Heathrow a world class airport, unlike some of these:

http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/the-new-generation-of-airports/2012/08/30/b7921f54-e321-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_story.html?goback=%2Egde_60803_member_157736898

OTB

AKA Combined Control Function.

There was a model of the airspace at Farnborough back in the 1990s. Lots of little plastic tubes looking like a Gordian Knot.I was stood looking at it with an American friend, when the NATS person we had been talking to rushed off to greet some visiting Arab.
i"We used that acronym in "Nam" my American friend said. "Stood for Collosal Cluster F***k"


Not a lot had changed I think.

I think it was Central Control Function, Lon,
Worked splendidly until someone mentioned Cbs with TSGR. Then it went tits-up, and pear-shaped, very quickly.

It wasn't my mess Zooker. We would just have had to contend with the extra workload it would dump on adjacent Centres.
We studied part of it on a Safety Evaluation Course. It was a large number of mid-airs waiting to happen.

I really don't know why there is all this discussion about a third runway at Heathrow because in all probability it will not happen. The greatest obstacle to it happening is the procrastination and total incompetence of the political parties in this country. The latest runway capacity study which has just been announced is not due to report until 2015 and I am sure that will be extended 6 months before it is due to report. There will then follow a "consultation " period of at least 3 years. If it is decided that yes Heathrow does need a third runway then a public enquiry will be set up and that will take another 5 years to come to a decision. If the go ahead is given then the European Court of Human Rights will probably get involved and don't forget Swampy and his chums. So as you can see quite a lot of people contributing to this thread, myself included , will be pushing up daisies long before a drop of concrete has been poured.:D

With the UK government going through rounds of beaurocracy of trying to decide what to do, followed by rounds of beaurocracy of trying to do it, billions would be spent and nothing would be finished in my lifetime.

By then many developing countries would have built hundreds of airports and runways.

Just look at Crossrail as an example. At project conceived in the 1980s and is still under construction. :E