3rd Runway..is there airspace ?
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3rd Runway..is there airspace ?
Can anybody confirm how capacity constrained the London TMA is ?
Various reports I have read sugest a 3rd runway at LHR would make little difference in terms of increasing capacity as the airspace is so full.
Whats the view of ATC personnel ?
Also appreciate it will never happen but would it not be better to close LGW. LCY LTN STN etc and just build 6 runways at LHR ? Surely this would be easier to control than having such a cockeyed system where everything is crossing in mid air ?
Various reports I have read sugest a 3rd runway at LHR would make little difference in terms of increasing capacity as the airspace is so full.
Whats the view of ATC personnel ?
Also appreciate it will never happen but would it not be better to close LGW. LCY LTN STN etc and just build 6 runways at LHR ? Surely this would be easier to control than having such a cockeyed system where everything is crossing in mid air ?
Last edited by Bagso; 26th Aug 2012 at 12:29.
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Lots of work going on in the background to increase the airspace capacity in and around London. There was a plan a couple of years back which went out to consultation, but I understand although these plans were delayed, their implementation will occur in the future?
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LAX runs 4 parallel rwy's in a class B (to the ground) airspace much smaller than London's TMA, so any airspace problem is purely in the minds of legislators and/or ATC. Not only that, ATC at LAX have to contend with GA traffic in the very same airspace (which is not the case in London), but right next to it and even right above the rwy's (the VFR Mini Route) - also not the case in London. My approaches into Hawthorne are side-by-side with big iron 747's on final to 25L - nobody breaks a sweat. And the missed approach on 25L (left turn) takes the big iron right into class D and eventually into uncontrolled airspace, something you'd never see in a million years in Europe.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 26th Aug 2012 at 21:16.
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Talkdownman,
loving your work. ATCO 1 friend of mine was on the CCF simulation and said exactly that. Went very quiet.
Never mind eh?
EFD will sort it out.
loving your work. ATCO 1 friend of mine was on the CCF simulation and said exactly that. Went very quiet.
Never mind eh?
EFD will sort it out.
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<<And the missed approach on 25L (left turn) takes the big iron right into class D and eventually into uncontrolled airspace, something you'd never see in a million years in Europe.>>
Thank God for that.
Thank God for that.
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Tunnels in the Sky = The Beeker Plan = Dave Beech and ? who was the other guy?
'It'll never work'. They were told that by many from Day 1. Huge waste of money. Next please...
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Beeker Plan
Chevron,
I recollect - through the mists of time - two other people were involved in the 'Beeker Plan in the early days.
One was John Pemberton (gammy leg) I think, but also a really nice chap - John S****** - cannot recall his surname, only that the first letter began with an 'S'.
John Pemberton was an ATCO I, and the section in CAA House was - IMRC - CAP8, so John P was the head of section perhaps. I do remember meeting with them in their office in CAA House - or was it Spacehouse in those days.
I also recollect that Dave Beech and John S went off to the US, and did some work looking at Jacksonville, which they used as the model for CCF.
The simulations were tremendous fun.
My one abiding memory of Dave Beech was being trained by him me as an ASC (Assistant Sector Controller) on SFD/WOR wings: he writing levels on the paper strips with a fountain pen. Takes all sorts.
John Pemberton died a couple of years ago.
MB
I recollect - through the mists of time - two other people were involved in the 'Beeker Plan in the early days.
One was John Pemberton (gammy leg) I think, but also a really nice chap - John S****** - cannot recall his surname, only that the first letter began with an 'S'.
John Pemberton was an ATCO I, and the section in CAA House was - IMRC - CAP8, so John P was the head of section perhaps. I do remember meeting with them in their office in CAA House - or was it Spacehouse in those days.
I also recollect that Dave Beech and John S went off to the US, and did some work looking at Jacksonville, which they used as the model for CCF.
The simulations were tremendous fun.
My one abiding memory of Dave Beech was being trained by him me as an ASC (Assistant Sector Controller) on SFD/WOR wings: he writing levels on the paper strips with a fountain pen. Takes all sorts.
John Pemberton died a couple of years ago.
MB
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No GA in the London Airspace....!
My God what planet are you on ?
Northolt, Biggin, Blackbushe, Farnborough......Or did I imagine them.
Anyway back in the real world is there enough room OR NOT, does anybody have a sensible answer ?
My God what planet are you on ?
Northolt, Biggin, Blackbushe, Farnborough......Or did I imagine them.
Anyway back in the real world is there enough room OR NOT, does anybody have a sensible answer ?
MONT BLANC
John S***** - could that have been John Smeath?
Really nice man, ex RAF Canberra pilot, LL/LHR ATC,LATCC N Bank, sadly died of a heart attack in 1988 (IIRC- 'Window Job' will know), aged only 52 or 53.
BW
Really nice man, ex RAF Canberra pilot, LL/LHR ATC,LATCC N Bank, sadly died of a heart attack in 1988 (IIRC- 'Window Job' will know), aged only 52 or 53.
BW
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I should have said London Class A. No VFR within miles unless it's the odd SVFR. So yes, if legislators thinks it's "too crowded" and unmanageable and oh so close to max capacity, maybe they should have a little look around how the rest of the world conducts mixed air traffic into a much smaller airspace.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 27th Aug 2012 at 10:36.
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<<No VFR within miles unless it's the odd SVFR.>>
You plainly have knowledge of the London Area. There is LOTS of VFR traffic within a few miles of Heathrow.
You plainly have knowledge of the London Area. There is LOTS of VFR traffic within a few miles of Heathrow.