Mannyfred

Good point re back-dating pay and spine points - will be a bit of a headache to work that one out!

However, our pay is due from Jan 08 therefore we should accept nothing else but backdating. Bacdated correctly, pre and post April figures...

4.8% from 1st June not backdated (if that was offered) would equate to circa 2.4% (not quite as simple a calculation as that, but as near as dammit).

We have not had a pay rise settled by the 1st Jan for years - notwithstanding the fact they were waiting to sor out the pension this year, the union really needs to get a grip and start negotiating earlier in the preceding year. Late once or twice over the past years is almost OK, but every time???

And the majority who vated yes might disagree with your suggestion that they had flawed decision making processes and that 'giving in' is entirely different to voting to accept something which appeared to be fundamental to sustaining their pensions in the future.
You're conflating 2 different issues. The only way you could link them is in that the negotiators on both sides were too involved with the pension issue to look at the pay issue in time for the pay discussions to deliver a pay deal in time for 1st Jan. But that late agreement has not been unusual in my time in the company, other than the past couple of years which were part of a 3 year deal, and has always been backdated.

BD

However, our pay is due from Jan 08 therefore we should accept nothing else but backdating. Bacdated correctly, pre and post April figures...

shouldn't that be Jan 09?:confused:

Lets agree to dissagree on this one :). However I think there is a valid point here insofar as agreeing to have the pension reduced which was a major decision, only sends out the message that a pay rise is insignificant in the bigger scheme of things.

I think the bigger issue(s), yes even bigger than this year's pay round, will come up at the forthcoming special delegate conference.

If the rumours I hear are true then I hope the outcome of the conference is an immediate ballot on industrial action.

The sand needs a line drawn in it.

Exactly :ok:

BDiONU

We are assuming that the returned ballot papers were correctly counted and independently verified, which there is some talk on here that they were not independently verified. Then there is all the other conspiracy theories about how many actually received a ballot paper, did it make it back with the Xmas post etc. Many staff mistakenly wholeheartedly believed the unions and voted accordingly, I've even heard rumours that the reps now realise they were too gullable when listening to management and regret hard selling the proposal to us.
Also I have spoken with several original "yes" voters who now regret their decision and with hindsight would now vote "no" knowing what they do now. Sadly not enough of us saw this coming and realised that we were not only voting on the pension proposal, but actually voting on all future negotiations and our bargaining position at them, which is now the weakest it has ever been, "hence we are no further forward with the pay rise". Unfortunately the original "no" voters were only just in the minority at 40% (ATCOs) and unable to save us from this poor position we now find ourselves in and will always find ourselves in forever.

Having retired from NATS at the end of last year I recently had a letter from the Pensions section telling me that April's pension increase will be 0%. Nice.

ATCE.

I also received the same letter concerning our non-pension rise, however I can live with it knowing that I now have a "safe" pension and dont have to get up at O dark o,clock to go and work for nats at swanwick.

Yeah we've all read, on here, about how the NTUS reps are selling us down the river blah blah blah. All I can say is look at all of the hot air written on here about the MoU for pensions and then look at the reality of the change to our terms & conditions:
• NATS will not require or incentivise existing employees to leave the NATS Section of the CAA Pension Scheme in favour of the NATS Defined Contribution Pension Scheme;

• NATS will not differentiate between employees on the basis of different pension scheme membership.

The above elements have been incorporated into a legally binding Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) signed by NATS and NATS Trade Union Side (NTUS), which will cover a 15 year period from 1 January 2009 to 31 December 2023. However, the last two points identified above will form a change to your terms and conditions of employment by their insertion into your contract of employment. For this reason, the protection will remain for as long as you are employed by NATS.
From my dealings with the unions I reckon the reps do their damnedest to drive through the best deal they can, despite all of the mud thrown at them in this forum.

BD

Careful, BD - too much sense for this thread :ok:


Roffa - what rumours?? :confused:

Not enough for you to join the union though!

I didn't know that Closed shops existed any more. We all have the choice to make whether we wish to join or not.

BD

....and you're not in it, so why do you persist in trying to influence people into thinking that PB is God and NATS is the greatest company on the face of the planet?????!!!!

Rumours - well from what I've heard it all stems from the Manchester contract negotiations and amounts to pretty much a tear up of current T&Cs, not to the workforces benefit.

E&0E

Hhhmmm, can you substantiate your claims and point out any post(s) where I've made any such claims, or are you just having a pop? Why do I persist in trying to influence people? Two reasons, 1) I try to counter some of the guff from the nay sayers. 2) as I'm not in the union and the union is the only recognised method by which the management will negotiate with the workforce the only way I can have a 'say' is through others.

BD

You ARE happy to let the rest of us (via the union ) improve your terms and conditions though.

Happy? No I would rather not have a.n. other negotiate on my behalf for my pay and conditions, but there is no other option. Unless I've missed something its either join a union or be disenfranchised.

BD

Put your handbags away ladies and let's return this thread back to topic!:ok: