And whilst we're on this subject maybe we should add into the 'pay equation' the TYPE of traffic as well as the levels.

Heathrow is busy in so much as they move a lot of people on big aircraft, but at the end of the day, they are tower only. Heathrow, being close to London also has high living costs.

Birmingham is kinda busy , moving people on big aircraft & they have to do there own radar. The midlands has reasonable living costs.

Now, stepping out of the NATS spectrum for a moment.

If I work at an airfield (of comparable size) & we only regularly have small aircraft, but we have A LOT of them movements (certainly comparable to a large NATS unit), why are we paid considerably less than the lowest band in NATS???

And then, why are pilots (generally) paid even more than (generally) most of us?

How should we grade salary levels on a unit to unit basis?

By number of aircraft movements?
By number of passenger movements?
By ratings held and used by controller?
By proximity to large city's & cost of living?
By age and experience?
By size of aircraft using the airport?
By the percentage of delays (or lack of)?

I think this pay thing comes down to the old adage; "ask 3 ATCOs a question, and get 6+ answers".

It's only when all ATCOs (NATS & non-NATS) "band" (no pun intended) together and decide what our fee is and on what factor that fee is based, can we move forward and harmonise our salaries to be more inline with the world market. We are, after all, a very skilled & highly specialised band of professionals who should get what we deserve IF we strive to attain it.

Until then I fear, the powers that be (or at least the ones with the purse strings) will just sit back and watch as the ATCOs collectively debate amongst themselves.

Wow. Should I maybe have a career change to speech writer? I've just re-read my post and it sounds gooooooooooood.

:ok:

Geffen, why are you and other Ppruner's who refer to Heathrow trying to correct me on my assumptions on the correlation between UK airport pax no.s and associated ATCO salaries? I made no reference to LL pax bearing on ATCO salaries in my original post and if you re-read it you will see that I was actually making a LIGHT HEARTED remark about the fact that Stansted are now handling more passengers p.a than Manchester, but I do actually understand that this bears no relevence to ATCO salaries.:ugh:

Maybe I should pay more attention to smileys! :)

I would wager that the vast majority of us at LL would kill for the chance to do radar as well as tower. That was certainly the case in the rest room today when we discussed this thread.

Classicwings, was your earlier question about LHR being 'top of the pile' for pay a serious one?

Likewise, those of us at TC doing approach radar only would love to do tower/radar too.

I can well imagine that!

throw a dyce.
my coment on pax numbers was not to you, just as a general answer to others thinking it should possibly be in the equation of ATCO pay :=

And my point is that thames and luton or any other aproach only ATCO should not be getting band 5 pay for doing a job that if they were at the unit they service they would be getting band 2,3,4, (except LL) pay but no one has the nuts to sort it.. they basically get band 5 for being at swanwick, its a complete farce.

GONZO

Firstly;

Errr...........................NO!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif (Please bear in mind my light hearted comments again about Stansted handling more pax than Manchester- despite the fact that I know this has no relation to ATCO salaries at either unit) AND

Secondly;

Oh, I bet you all wish you had been employed by NATS in the 'golden era' when working in ATC was almost a paid hobby and airports (including LHR) still had combined Tower and Radar functions!!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/boohoo.gif


PRIVATE SANDWICHES

I wish there was a better smiley in my menu box to emphasise the fact that I wasn't actually being serious in trying to relate pax no.s at airports to the wealth of ATCO's!

Speaking as somebody who benefits from the rather odd situation at TC of everyone being on the same Band 5 money, I can see where your comments are coming from. I'm sure the company would save a fortune if respective approach sectors were paid the equivalent of their tower counterparts.
Unfortunately, I don't think you'd ever get that to stick now. Also, you'd have to offer people the opportunity to train on higher paid sectors to improve their pay....not a problem for me personally, I'd be more than happy to try and elevate my Band 4 status to Band 5.:)

Hasn't it always been the case within NATS whereby approach /area controllers are on a higher pay banding than aerodrome controllers?

This does relate mind you to a few (now retired) controllers I know who, bearing in mind their future enhanced paycheques, couldn't get through the front door of TC West Drayton quick enough when Stansted Radar moved down there and they said a big 'cheereo' to SS TWR!!:}:}

its the dozy few who pretty much refuse to do another approach sector that takes the piss. there are pleny i know of who are more than happy to do 2 but management give them the fob off and they sit bored as hell for the most part.

Frilsy's original question was????????

Would like to help but our pay scales are kept under lock and key in the admin managers lair. If I was to guess I'd go for approx 43k to 58K for a fully valid controller. Oh and that's at Elvis' favourite airport :}

Would all those angry & frustrated NATS atcos kindly return to their numerous other threads on the subject :E

Fly Through

Is the 58K including any shift or other allowances or are they on top?

If they are on top 58K is roughly the top of scale at the 5th busiest airport within NATS and the country which begs the question why am I pi**ing about within NATS. :hmm:

Hootin':

No shift pay on top of that.

Interesting point of view! Several of our colleagues had a look at the relative hues of the grass recently and came to a different conclusion. They'll be joining you on your side of the fence very soon.

Mind you, it would be interesting to see the GP, NX and NT scales.

Elvis was here
 

I reckon Fly Through's guestimate is pretty much spot on - the only extras are for things like OJTI & LCE or a few additional admin tasks. The allowances are pretty poor though - in fact it's so long since they were changed, even old codgers like Cartman probably can't remember ! ;)

P****ing about in NATS
 

I'll give you 3 reasons

1 - Final salary pension
2 - LOL insurance
3 - working conditions

Trust me - I know of what I speak. I can't comment on other places but Elvis's favourite can't compete with NATS on any of those. That might be why a fair percentage of Elvis fans are leaving the building.

we'll also be knocking down their radar next year and building our own one! Mwah Mwah Mwah!

\don't bet on that! :suspect:

No it doesn't.

Whilst you make a noble point in the globalised world, market forces apply and if you are making a greater revenue for whoever you work for, then the chances are that they will pay you a greater salary. Pilots, for instance, do not all earn the same; the larger the aircraft, the more complex the task, the higher the salary band so why should this premise not be the case for ATCOs?

You also make the point

Heathrow is busy in so much as it (whether we like it or not) moves a lot of aircraft - none of this lots of people in big planes nonsense. It remains the busiest aerodrome by almost 400 movements a day (obviously I am discounting Silverstone or LF during the Airshow) and it forms a vital part of the UK infrastructure, displayed by the importance that the Government, and the aviation industry, pins on the construction of the third runway. So whilst you might not like it, I don't want all UK ATCOs to get paid the same. However, I DO want all UK ATCOs to get paid fairly for the traffic that they work and it is here that more work needs to be done.

P7

Heathrow quite obviously should be one of the highest payed ATCO jobs in the UK.
However it is unrealistic to expect salaries to be decided primarily by the traffic a unit works.Otherwise a unit working 1000 a day on £60000 means a unit working a 100 a day are only going to get £6000 (taking it to the extreme i know) and that would mean HIAL would not get anybody. So in reality a lot of units have to offer salaries not too far behind the big airports in order to attract people and keep staff , regardless of the amount of traffic worked , but that is market forces. When people make a choice to work at unit it is not just down to money. Quality of life , family connections and general lifestyle choice etc. come into it. (contary to the old belief by some ,that if you work at non NATS unit, its because you could not make the grade at NATS.):)

Plus of course if you work for NATS you go where you're sent and choice has very little to do with it.