Nice to see our union reps doing us proud again!!!!!!!!!!!
As has been said before, Prospect has been very vocal about "One Nats, one pension". What are they playing at?
If this is the best they can come up with I'm stopping my contibutions until we can get a decent union and decent representatives.
There are a worrying amount of our union reps who are middle to senior management. I don't think that the very people who are involved in making company decisions should be the ones who are representing us, as they will always be putting company first.

Exactly that !

I was going to add something to the discussion but I know it will be flamed so I will not bother.

so we all voting a big fat NO then???
there is no mention of the big ol' payment holiday they took either... how convenient.
and in 15 years, are we going to be screwed by the newbies on the lesser pension?
once again, the union in bed with the company.... i will go see tomorrow if my union rep is still wearing his 'one nats one pension' pass holder around his neck!!!!
we need to protect our pension and show this to the company. this is the first offer, if we all vote no will they come back with something better???

Before you leave the Union remember ONLY UNION MEMBERS WILL GET A VOTE.

I think we all need to have some time to digest this announcement. Having spoken to a rep today it would appear that the pension is already in deficit and it is the actuaries who seem to be driving the timescales.

Apparently they would be insisting on a contribution rate of up to around 60% in the near future if no guarantees could be given on the present scheme. I don't think any size of organisation could even consider that as a sensible or achievable goal.

As always, it will no doubt, have been a very difficult negotiation. And remember that is just what it is. You don't always get exactly what you want when it comes to negotiations.

I will wait to see what the rationale is from the union before I decide the course of action I will take. Certainly resigning will not change things one iota at the moment nor at this time will talk of getting rid of leading union figures. After all there is hardly a queue of people volunteering to be even local reps never mind taking on higher office.

The next few weeks will be a time for every one of us to be prepared to learn a bit more about pensions generally before we take knee jerk action. It would appear that the guarantees are in place for the existing scheme members and that new scheme would be significantly better than NATS originally offered.

I think my main concerns at the moment are about:

1) Guarantees if NATS has new owners.

2) Guarantees that the old scheme can not be "out voted" in a few years.

3) Does this really provide the protection NATS are looking for risk wise or will they just come back for more later.

All very worrying but maybe a sign of the economic times we now live in.

I'll go and put my flak jacket on now.

But isn't this the point of the financial markets and economies in general? They're always going in peaks and troughs. At the moment we're in a trough. And we've been in troughs before. Things always recover.

That being said, I think 250kts makes some very pertinent points that have thrown up some questions that have markedly been avoided in the 2 statements issued today.

250kts - really good and level headed post - I agree - kneejerk reaction will be "no" (It certainly is my kneejerk reaction), but then we're faced with the "what is the alternative?" question.

The questions you raise are really fundamental to whether the offer really is acceptable or not.

I'm genuinely surprised that there is no big "carrot" to encourage acceptance - I would really like to see the pay proposals along side the pension debate and to try and ensure that whatever the pay deal is for 09 that it is delivered prior to the changes to the pension coming into force.

I'm sorry, but why should people stop doing AAVAs?
The pensions affect almost everyone in the company, yet you are asking the minority to take a course of action to protect the future of the pension for all. The only way that management will wake up and see what the feeling of the workforce actually is, will be for everyone to take action and I suspect the only way this would happen is the threat ( and follow through if necessary) of strike action.

I, like Caesartheboogeyman will continue doing AAVAs until the union say that we should stop doing them.

DotMac

I understand you being wary over 'Smart Pensions' but the company should have been doing them years ago.

I think it's actually criminally negligent that they have taken until now to do it... as a shareholder I'm not happy that they have been wasting my money for years by not using Smart Pensions!!

How many times do people have to be told......

Stop doing bloody overtime and coming in on your days off sucking up to management.

LateStay
I'm sorry, but why should people stop doing AAVAs?
The pensions affect almost everyone in the company, yet you are asking the minority to take a course of action to protect the future of the pension for all. The only way that management will wake up and see what the feeling of the workforce actually is, will be for everyone to take action and I suspect the only way this would happen is the threat ( and follow through if necessary) of strike action.

I, like Caesartheboogeyman will continue doing AAVAs until the union say that we should stop doing them.

You dont get it do you.. NATS cant operate effectively without overtime. :ugh: Forget the short term greed and get a life on your days off :)

When it comes down to it, AAVAs are all about greed.
... makes it sound like ATCOs on the lower points scales are poor. Even the first point of the ACTO 3, band 1 is a decent wage. Greedy b*st*rds.

There will be no NATS strike in 2008 or 2009, mark my words. The AAVA generation will be too sh1t scared of their big mortgages to lose a day or so wages.

VL

From Prospect ATCOs' Branch


To all Trade Union Members:



You will all now have seen the joint statement regarding the pension proposals.

We would like to make it clear that there are two parallel consultation processes which will now take place.

The first is a requirement upon NATS to consult with all members of the pension scheme on specific proposed change. NATS and the NATS Trade Union Side will be supporting the process to explain the joint proposal.

The second is a full trade union consultation which will culminate in a ballot of all trade union members by each of the constituent trade union groups.

In order to allow members to make an informed decision the NTUS and NATS will be holding briefings at all units.

The details of these briefings will be notified to you by local unit managers and each one will be formed of two distinct parts, the first part being a joint session with management and the second a trade union briefing for trade union members only which will be conducted by members of the NATS Trade Union Side.

We would urge all members to make every effort to attend one of these briefing sessions.

" What did the union do for us????"

Tony Blair " Our skies are not for sale" Actually they were, but our union said don't worry we won't let that happen.

Backward step, actually our union will let it happen, but we will stop SERCO running NATS, the airline group is a good option ladies and gentlemen they said. BUT DON't WORRY YOUR PENSION IS SAFE AND THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS WON'T CHANGE, they said. Like Lambs to the slaughter we all agreed and believed our union reps knew what they were doing.

A few years later the pension is threatened. " DONT WORRY THEY SAID, ONE NATS ONE PENSION" That is the way and what we will fight for.

What have we here, yet another large backward step, so there will be 2 pension schemes after all. A deal worked on by the hard working reps who have sold us down the river so often that they all have a major shareholding in Hoseasons holidays!!!

ENOUGH ENOUGH. Vote NO, on this offer. Think back to what has happened over the years, in a few years our glorious union reps will agree that the "old" scheme is unsustainable because management has told them so.

That powder is so so dry it is about time that we set it alight,the pension is what we all work for, I will not be happy working alongside colleagues I have shafted and who will out number me in years to come and take delight in closing my pension down.

ONE NATS ONE PENSION IS WHAT I WAS TOLD WHAT I WANT AND WHAT I BELIVE WE SHOULD FIGHT FOR.

It is nobody else's business but mine whether I work overtime or not. It is nobody else's business other than mine what I consider to be my acceptable work/life balance.

VL,

Speak for yourself.

One Nats One Pension!!!

Hmmm now lets see..... so we fight for one pension and come January the company is forced by the actuaries to start paying a contribution rate of 40ish percent. The airlines will not allow this cost to be passed on and neither will the regulator, so NATS has to foot the bill. Thats got to be near to a 100 million pounds a year in savings needing to be made. Now I know for a fact a certain large unit in Hampshire has struggled to make a 9 million pounds saving in a couple of years, so what chance do they have... none.

Either the company goes bust or they have to start selling bits. First to go will be NSL with its loss making contracts and high pension costs. Now i'm not sure about those covered by the trust promise but the rest of us are knackered as the new owner only has to endeavor!!! to maintain the current scheme. If bits aren't sold the company will go bust, and the government will be called upon to bail us out. They'll probably do it but then its the same situation again new owner will get hold of us and then its new terms and conditions and bye bye pension anyway for alot of us.

Don't be too hasty to slam this new deal because the alternative may not be much better. Get all the info first then get angry if you need to.

You must have a high opinion of yourself sunshine .. ..

lets face it no one else has :)

Anyway we are all upset, me too :\

I still fear the worst though :eek:

So the government has to bail us out, who then will buy us???

Why do NSL have loss making contracts, who negotiated these contracts???? Its about time the BAA paid the going rate for the NATS expertise, lets call their bluff and see which companies could run ATC at Heathrow/ Gatwick etc.

If Nats goes bust will we all become civil servants again, seem to remember the civil service pension is excellent!!!!!

Is our final pension still going to be based on 58ths of our FULL final salary at retirement, or the pensionable part. If the latter, then over 15 years the difference between the two could be over 16% if pay is RPI+1.5% vs cap of RPI+0.5%), i.e. you pension will be based on 58th of 84% of final salary at retirement!

Uuumm bittertwisted who do you think NATS is? Some faceless entity? You and me and your buddies and mine are 'NATS' and if we make a loss our company (yes we are a company) go to the wall. Where's our pension then? Megaphone 25 makes a good point, cool heads, examine the deal, look at what it offers and think about the options. Less of the knee jerk "one out all out brothers" responses which appear to be in the main so far. The company, OUR company, has promised briefings, consultations and lots more information on the way, so lets have a read through first.

BD
The ass kissing management lacky (obviously)

Perhaps if NATS spent half as much time and money and effort as it has on convincing us the pension is beyond redemption on petitioning the regulator and or government to allow it to charge for all of it's costs rather than just some, the situation may be different.
Which other companies, or indeed businesses, charge for a service knowing that charge will not cover it's costs. Why has nobody challenged this ridiculous 'cost passthrough' thing. Apparently NATS is supposed to be a profit making business.(Don't say it will require a change of legislation so can't be done, as I seem to think PPP'ing NATS required a certain amount of civil service work too!)

Also, if this new 'deal' comes to pass, how about a review in 5 or so years when hopefully the economic markets will be on the up again. If the surplus is back or growing, perhaps revert back to the current status quo.

I thought that each person had an individual choice to opt in to Smart.If you opt out,then you have to wait a year to opt in again,unless you have a lifestyle change.This is HMRC information.Didn't see that in the statement.
Smart is a tax loophole.It surprising that the Gov.uk haven't closed that one off.Probably since they started this pension problem,they thought it better kept open.:suspect:

Aaaww, I had that stored in my favourites list.:(

'Smart pensions' or salary sacrifice

Smart pensions explained a little

That article states;

Careful account needs to be taken of all pay-related benefits to ensure they are not reduced by the salary sacrifice. Items like overtime, shift etc may be calculated by reference to the basic rate.

Since we are on a final salary scheme, does that mean that by going for a SMART pension, my final salary pension would be reduced? If so, by how much?

Pension contribution is 6%, so I guess salary and pension would be reduced by the same.

Smart Pensions. Cable and Wireless run such a scheme and I have found the following link to the company handbook that explains it.

http://www.freedom.cw.com/pdf/Smart_Booklet.pdf

Page 5 is the interesting one, especially part for people on the notional 50 grand a year salary. £20 a year for the massive savings the company are making does not seem a lot.

As for benefits on retirement, in the C&W scheme there is no change, it quite clearly states on page 8 that nothing will change as the final salary used to calculate the pension will be based on the "notional" final salary.

As long as it is negotiated that benefits are based on notional salary the only loser is the taxman. However Where we do lose out though is when we have pay rises of greater than RPI + 0.5%, in which case your actually salary becomes higher than the notional salary.

Nats Pension Oh Dear Oh Dear
 

Just thought I would get the ball rolling on this small issue.

My two penny worth is that this is pretty much a done deal, If the NTUS branch are reccommending this then there will be insufficient fight in the membership to strike towards any improved acheiveable goal.

The deal stinks to me but Prospect will undoubtedly get the 51% required and we will move into an unsure future where there will be further attempts to undermine and close the top tier fund.

:eek:

sold down the river by a union thats nothing more than a branch of management.

one nats one pension BOLLOCKS!

Well I would have thought that the statement on this would have mentioned the HMRC opt in/out rules on Smart.
Either they are trying to cover it up by not mentioning it....possible,
or they don't understand Smart,and ain't so smart.....possible,
or HMRC are talking rubbish....errr don't think so.

The new pension for joiners after 2009 was always on the cards.Will the membership go the same way on that as the Banding and Atco2/3 split.Probably because it's the doesn't affect me thing.Will the retirement bulge get any bigger.Certainly because no one in their right minds over 50,soon to be 55 should be subjecting themselves to this stressful job,with an employer/union nibbling away at the only decent thing left..the pension.

I'm baffled by the level of interest in the SMART pension bit.... It's !!!! all. They are closing our pension scheme and all people want to talk about is the few pence National Insurance?!?! :mad:

SMART pension will not have any negative impact on anyone. Forget it. It'll save you a few pennies but nothing else meaningful will change. At all.

me me me me :D:D:D:D:D

who cares about smart pensions!! least of our worries... One nats, one pension...
And as for the person who said 'The deal stinks to me but Prospect will undoubtedly get the 51% required ', well I really hope that 51% of my colleagues can look though this so called deal that prospect have said is the only option and give them a big fat resounding 'no' vote, when the push comes to shove...

Anyone wanna join me by the security station?? I'll even provide 180 tea bags to keep us warm, cos the way these 'negotiations' are going, if prospect have their way, 180 teabags will be worth more than my pension!

The question is not whether to strike, its what to chant when we're out there...

Just heard Swanwick has gone down !!.

Any way the onenatsonepension cached link below is interesting since the current onenats2pensions link has gone down in sympathy with Swanwick :}

Prospect ATCO Branch Conference: Leading the Way, Shaping the Future :ok: :ok: :p :eek: :*

"Our pension

• We have one of best defined benefit schemes in UK

• We agree

• The scheme is currently in good financial health and is adequately funded

• We agree, currently and we wish to keep it that way"

thanks band4all, you,ve got me chucklin with that!

just incase the powder thats been being kept dry has been blown away, i have a plan B:
http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/catap.gif

Plan C :)


http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smil...Mastermind.gif

Instant Karma.

yesterdays computer glitch was reported as only lasting one hour yet look at the delays and cancellations. If ever there was proof of how working to rule or strike action would effect operations in nats that was it!!
The media were loving the chance ot go to heathrow and take footage of parked planes. lets make them do it again. VOTE NO to the pension offer.
VOTE YES to some strike action.
Don't step on my shoes barron, you will get a bloody nose.