Sorry to hear that

Sorry ain't good enough.

Management want to cut staff to maintain profits.

Aren't we a not for profit company?

Take a long hard look at the proposals for H24 Engineering and imagine those principles applied to ATCOs.

When there are no more Engineers to cut who will they come looking for?

office staff, by the nature of the business, atcos have to be last.

Ive had enough of this, its time to make a stand and stop the rot.

Ive played ball in my management job role and despite reservations about the nature of the companys direction in recent times, I have stuck by the party line.

But this is seriously pushing my buttons now and I will be fighting for my pensions come oct30. They better have something earth shattering to change my mind. I doubt it.

Regardless of the outcome in tha ballot, I am done with NSL vision 201111111111 and all the other b******s.

I shall be looking after no1 and my nearest and dearest from here on in.

I though that as part of PPP profit would not be put before safety:

Getting rid of 20% of H24 engineers,
Low morale at the units,
Threat to our pensions,



We have a serious problem here

Not forgetting of course that those engineers who are made redundant will get paid less following the companies clever manipulation of the recent changes to age discrimination laws.

Surely though no NATS permanent engineer should go whilst we are paying for contract staff in any of our engineering depts. Where the heeck are the union in this.

Sooner the 'No' vote the better or any of us with anything like any time invested in the company are going to get shafted.

Like I said in my previous post......


The Airline group need pressure put on them from the majority shareholders, the Government. The Newspapers need to be stirred up also !
Don't rule out NATS becoming fully Nationalised again, I seem to remember happier times.........http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif :D

Nationalised Air Traffic Services How does that sound Mr Barron http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

I think we need a united stance from here on in!!

Having spoken to a few engineers, not only do they ensure the smooth running of the day to day operation, but when things really go wrong ie last week, they are invaluable. Does reducing engineer numbers reduce safety????

um........

Perhaps we should be looking to the Whiteley activity centre for cost savings!

GMWTB

engineers are vital to the safe running of an ops room. H24.
Being told that something can't get looked at because there is not the staff is not going to cut it. If something is not right in the ops room or behind the scenes it needs attention immediately.

This is the letter my MP has sent to Alastair Darling.

Dear Alastair

I write on behalf of several of my constituents who work as Air Traffic Controllers

My constituents are concerned at proposed changes to their pension scheme. Their primary concern centres around a limit on future pensionable pay increases. Effectively, they feel, this does away with the final salary scheme as it stands at the moment. It is undoubtedly the case as it amounts to a devaluation of their retirement income, since it will no longer be linked to their salaries.

My constituents were under the impression that their pension benefits were protected by an Act of Parliament. This appears to be at odds with the proposed changes. Can you clarify the situation?

I am aware that the possibility of industrial action has been mentioned. My constituents feel that this would be a very damaging course of action for all sides. Nevertheless, they are of the opinion the longer the continued uncertainty goes on, the more attractive industrial action will look to their colleagues.

I would be grateful for your thoughts on this matter

Rt Hon Malcolm Bruce MP

I still don't remember those happier times. The same exercise to reduce H24 engineering staff at the Airports happened prior to PPP as did the closing of regional maintenance bases. In fact staff cuts were made to Operational Engineering all through the 90's.

It's also worth remembering that contract staff and those at Whiteley are real people with families and mortgages too. Many of the contract staff in engineering departments were hired to avoid the redundancy and pension liabilities and will be far worse off than the permanent staff if they are laid off.

Were you employed by NATS before it was part privatised, or were you with another company ?

My happy times were with NATS , when PPL was part of the cadetship, when XMAS parties with booze were allowed in the canteen, when we had plenty staff, when managers were good guys you could respect, when EG's were the norm, when the car park wasn't full of office workers cars MON-FRI and empty at the weekend when we are working our bo**ocks off..........need I go on? :ok:

happy times?
 

Prom, And your point is?:confused:

That stuff was well over a year ago, it's now we're talking about:rolleyes:

the good old days Air Farce 1.

even have memories of the office staff taking their coffee back to their office so that the operational staff could have a table in the coffee bar at LATCC.

sod all chance of that now!

Well I just ran the handy gadget that HR have posted on their site on NATSNet that lets you work out what effect all this will have on your pension as an individual.

http://natsnet/humanresources/pensions

Mine comes out as a 13% reduction in annual pension at age 60 [but I do get an extra £30 per year :ok:]

That's the equivalent of the annual SAGA holiday shot in the arse then. Mrs Boffins will be ever so pleased :ouch:

Beginning to think that the argument for a "YES" vote is going to have to be really convincing to get me to cut my own leg off.:(

At least we have now got a shiny book full of hard information so that we may better inform our collective decision. Can't wait for the tale of woe which will seek to gain our allegiance...:hmm:

Surely the company should be doing all it can to retain (sorry this is about ATCO's) ATCO's and offering a better pension deal. If any more leave then all this saving will mean nothing to the fines imposed for delays. And if it offers a better deal it should be for all employee's. nuff said

Thanks for the link Dances with Boffins

I am about £3,000 a year worse off on my pension under the proposed new scheme.
I intend to live until 90, so I will be about £100,000 worse off. That's £100,000 less for my children/grandchildren.

They can shove it ! :mad:

Saw the link in work today - at last some hard information.

If I go on until 80 years old I'll be £8000 a year worse off!
That makes £160,000 less in pension payment during retirement!!
The only way they'll get my Yes vote is give me a lump sum of £160,000 now.

Younger staff are gonna lose far more than me in retirement - They'd be CRAZY to vote Yes.

Spot the deliberate mistake ..... :yuk:

Ive just looked at the calculator, I too will be approx £8K down in my pension payments.

NATS will need to dig deep to be able to afford my yes vote! Unless there is £100K plus they can count on my NO vote!

On another note, nice to see Prospect etc have decided to same money be withdrawing the one NATS one pension site. All my faith in the unions has now gone!

I went to a pensions briefing today. I would urge all members to attend the briefings given by the NTUS and management. In my opinion it boils down to one fundamental question, "Do you trust the management to leave your pension entitlement and other provisions alone for fifteen years?"

So what happens if there is a Yes vote ?

Thanks DC10RealMan

I have not attended any briefing yet....

what is the significance of the 15 years ?

"Do you trust the management to leave your pension entitlement and other provisions alone for fifteen years?"

thanks :ok:

dc10realman:
not a fundamental question for me. if i do trust them to leave it alone for fiftenn years, what happens then? I will only be 41, years from retirement and preparing for another shafting.
Mine's a NO.


air.farce.1: the publication from the union that was floating about with the proposal on it promises to be reviewed again in 15 years.
Don't believe anything.
What happened to onenatsonepension, our pension being safe because a payment holiday was granted etc etc etc.

NO NO NO NO

You have to join a NTUS union to vote.

Decisions are made by those who have a vote not by those shouting from sidelines.

thanks ImnotanERIC

This is a no-brainer folks, you have got to vote

NO :ok:

Why I'll say no
 

Or can we afford not to do something right now?

I spoke to someone who was at a briefing earlier this week, They went in as a resounding "no" and came out convinced that there really was no option-like it or not, It would appear this is the best of a bad situation.

Going to the briefings really is a must for us all to be properly informed.

Well the last time we were supposed to get briefings from Prospect,they couldn't even be bothered to turn up at the unit.
What do we pay our union subs for?
Well Prospect we don't really like it,and we expect you to help the people who pay for the representation.
How many union reps are on a promotion promise,if this goes through..eh.:suspect:

Unless there is some dramatic "secret" being kept hidden from us, I still remain convinced we are being stitched up my management.
I refer you to my previous post "26th September" ... before the present financial crisis ....

"Sounds like the reps have been groomed to convince us during their "working together" sessions, no doubt using the current Global financial crisis to strengthen managements case and frighten us by weakening our resolve. Dont listen to them, use the ballott "

And from my other previous post...

"Legal Status and Ownership

NATS Holdings Ltd is the holding company for NATS Group. It owns NATS Ltd, which in turn owns two operating subsidiaries: NATS (En-Route) plc (NERL) and NATS (Services) Ltd (NSL). The Airline Group Ltd, a consortium of seven airlines, has the majority of voting rights and 41.9% of the shares of NATS Holdings Ltd. The Secretary of State for Transport owns 48.9%, BAA plc 4.2%; and NATS Employee Sharetrust Ltd 5%.

The Government is the major shareholder (48.9%) and NATS cannot go into administration. There is a good reason why they still part own it... because NATS is essential to the UK both economically and from a safety and security aspect, thus NATS will not be allowed to go into administration -even if it could."

Bearing the above in mind, since the Government owns 48.9% which belongs to the Public sector, perhaps we are attacking this from the wrong angle. Has anyone lobbied their local MP ? NATS is predominantly owned by the Government not the private shareholders above.

Please bear these facts in mind and try and steer away from any attempts to have your minds changed by the faint hearted who post management and dare I say Union "working together" opinions on this forum.

Consider this also, the meer threat of a one day strike would not be tolerated by the Public, never mind an actual ATC strike. We know the effects from a 3 hour computer glitch - headline news and major delays.
Do not underestimate the skills you have which this Government and the public cannot do without "

This is probably your last chance to save your pension for you, your partner, your children and grandchildren.

Vote NO, or lose it

Yes that PCS' 'deliberate mistake' is embarassing, Jobby Wheecher.

I never did find out why onenatsonepension.com got taken off the air ... too much information perhaps?

When will the union start conducting itself carefully, and for the benefit of its members one wonders?

You may chose to believe that there is a great conspiracy between the union and management and we've been sold down the river but it's starting to become clear how they've got to this point and I don't think either side had any choice.

It may seem foolhardy for NATS management to pick this fight that they couldn't possibly win but actually they had to. Given the choice of breaking the law and all the sanctions that would bring down on them as individuals or possibly taking the company into Air Traffic administration and just losing their jobs I know which one I'd pick. With the second they can move onto other things, the first would also leave them unemployed and probably stop them ever holding such a post again.

Similarly the union probably doesn't have any choice either. Yes on the face of it the controllers are probably the last unionised workforce with true industrial power but if they set off all that dry powder an awful lot of people, most of them also union members, are likely to get hurt in the ensuing fireball. Yes some of the Prospect members may have flame proof suits but others don't. You may think they've sold you out but I think they just realise the reality of the situation. They are conducting themselves for the benefit of all their members not just the few who are flameproof.

Having had a look at the Transport Act provision for administration I don't think bringing the company down is going to be the Nirvana some may think. NATS would probably remain a separate company run by a Government appointed administrator and still subject to price regulation. It will have to repay any money used to bail it out which effectively means cost cutting year on year and no investment in new equipment etc. Eventually that cost cutting will have to move to controllers because there is nothing else to cut. It'll take a bit of time but it will happen.

Prospect sold its members down the river when they negotiated going against the current mandates. No negotiations should have taken place prior to this issue being raised at the annual conference.

the pension pot has been robbed by NATS with their pension holiday. The questions we need to answer...

How much did NATS take from the pension surplus?
Would the scheme be in the same state, with all these millions back in?

I would think not. Im still a big NO!

The pension predictor spreadsheet doesn't make for pleasant reading. Can anyone remember what the RPI+ pay deals were or what they averaged over the last few years?

Whatever financial doom and goom ensues at the moment will NOT last forever, it is just a temporary situation that WILL resolve itself and CERTAINLY WITHIN THE NEXT 15 YEARS.

If we don't vote NO now we will lose the chance to do anything until the year2023+ Now that's a LONG time to have our hands tied for, by when the difference between what we currently get and the proposed pension will be too great to reconcile.

Since NATS have settled a large loan early and have absorbed the move out of LTCC the outgoings should be much reduced and settle down, which could offset the increased pensions liability. And NATS management should forget about PROFIT, we are a NON-PROFIT MAKING company FFS. Our shareholders knew that when they took a part of NATS, why have their expectations changed? :mad:

VOTE NO

Asda over the last 18 years the pay increase has been 147% which has been almost double the Rpi of 79%.so the average rise has been rpi+ 2.5%.

Caving in over this big issue will give the current (and any future) management the signal that they can do whatever they like to us in terms of pay and conditions, safe in the knowledge that we'll do bugger all about it.

Time for that line in the sand to be drawn permanently and the battle lines prepared.

If we lose this, we lose everything that has been built up over the years.


I have quite a few questions ready for my roadshow, some of which focus on why the union is sleeping with the enemy and apparently reneging on Branch Policy. Some will focus on why the Government won't put in the required funding for any temporary shortfall, as they promised when PPP happened. (I doubt they have even been asked, as this would not help Mr Barron's position as the government appointed 'hero' who sold NATS off down the river) And some will focus on raising the awareness of NATS as to how many things could crumble before their eyes when all the goodwill is withdrawn by staff. I am sure there we be loads of other points added from other equally inflamed folks at my unit too !!


:mad: with our pension at your peril.

Thank you PPRuNe Radar ! :ok:

You are restoring my faith in humanity :) :D:D

We have got to stand together on this... or we are finished, and Barron will ride off into the sunset in his Aston Martin with a suitcase full of our money :mad:

after many chats in and out of our ops room, with union reps and us mortals.... it seems nats are playing a clever game. all these sneaky tactics to make us believe that if this change doesnt get put through the whole company and our pensions are going bust by the close of 2009. this is simply not true, they are blowing smoke up our arses and the union has fallen for it to 'save' the company.
do they really think that we are naive enough to beleive the company will actually go to the wall? no flights in, out or over the UK... the government will never let that happen.
when ppp came in we were protected, and so that should stand. ATCOs ATSAs Engineers and office staff....lets stick together and tell them to ram it.
i am eagerly waiting next weeks briefings as i have plenty of questions for our week spined union and those snake nats manager types.
the next time our union is up for new reps, im sticking my name down?