I had heard he wasn't long to retirement - whether thats in entirety or just from NATS I don't know.

Either way, just as in his last employ, you can bet that once his hatchet job is complete, he will drive off into the sunset (and probably get a bung towards his pension fund, like he did when he moved to NATS, to boot).

Although he harps on about the fact that he has a NATS pension, he has recently had a whopping well above RPI pay rise (fully pensionable, of course) and will leave before his fund is damaged in any way.

Zooker - it will be nice to see him wear a tie for a change. Call me old fashioned but I am not at ease with the trend of very senior managers thinking it is OK to go about just in suit trousers and open necked shirt.

It's all part of the bolleaux he is trying to pull on us, along with his blogs, to try to endear himself to us, to make us think he is one of the people.

It aint working!! Wear a tie, and as for the blogs, do I give a !!!! about knowing what you got up to at the weekend??? NO!!

Our unit managers and their underlings manage to wear ties and look a hell of a lot smarter for it.

Rant over... I feel better for that

andanotherthing


I think you've misunderstood me. Would you like to be "TUPEd"? The ATCOs I know are fully aware that a new company taking them over only has to match Ts and Cs for a certain amount of time... then they claim they can't afford it and offer a much worse deal knowing that said ATCOs will have to accept it or go elsewhere. I would never be as obtuse as to speak for everyone, but the tower ATCOs I know applied to NATS for a job, not the unit they ended up working at. And now some are being knocked back for training at NERL units because the training depts are only accepting them if NSL pay for the training. Hmmm....
So, if PB walks away from a load of contracts and 80% of the staff involved insist on staying with NATS, he WILL have a case of too many tower controllers, not enough jobs. Take the TUPE or eff off, surely?

I know you'll prove me wrong somehow ;)

And another thing, andanotherthing,

"The same as happens whenever a change of service provider happens at an airfield... the winner of the new contract takes on the old staff.

Or do you think that new controllers can be drafted in and be qualified to work at whichever airport is concerned the day after the contract changes hands?

Who do you think will do the training Fenella?"

I do have a couple of brain cells :ouch:

What if they don't have an OJTI ticket yet?What if they don't want to stay and train? What if they ask to be relocated to another NATS unit and are told they'll have to move to the opposite side of the country? (Sorry to any Manch area readers about that one). Nice options....

BTW I haven't got enough brain cells to work out how to "quote" properly though.

Dearest Fenella..........
A glance at the time of your posts, combined with the content of said posts, clearly indicates that you have just got back from a very good night out :ok:
A "Bloody Mary" when you get up is the best way to recovery, especially when combined with a full English including bubble and Squeak and Black Pudding :8
Regards,
FBW

FBW, you appear to be online too. I take it that's your personal remedy for the morning? I worked til 11pm... sorry about the insomnia, but I'm quite offended that you think I am some kind of lush. I would suggest you acquired some manners.

That's probably why there is the big rush to move Oceanic across the road, so that he can trumpet that the new Centre is officially open. Even although there will be no presence from Scottish and Manchester at that point.

There's a couple of things our esteemed leader seems to have overlooked - firstly, he has no clear idea about how many MACC folks will be coming up the road, and therefore how viable it will be to make that part of the Ops Room operational. Secondly, he (through his management) seems to think that everyone at Scottish will be falling over themselves to give their rostered days off up and come in for OCT for some time in lieu (wow, what an offer, how can we refuse) or maybe a few hundred pounds bung (non Op AAVAs = cheap labour). We're almost in the planned year of opening and the management still haven't come to the unions to put all this to them formally (and be told to get stuffed I bet) or to publicise their great master plan of how they are going to lead the horse to the water and make him drink.

You can expect a lot of resistance to any poor OCT 'deal'. There is precedent with Swanwick and TC regarding appropriate remuneration. Something similar for us or forget it on days off. Alternatively they could try and take half of the staff out of the Ops Room on each rostered day and fill the blanks with AAVAs. Again, one would hope that they would find a lot of difficulty filling those spaces up, not only because we are selling ourselves cheaply if we do, but because many folks might be approaching their AAVA limit by then anyway. The final alternative is to accept massive delays and a hit on the managements bonuses ... but we couldn't possibly have that happen could we ??

There could be trouble ahead ..... and a late opening of the full Prestwick Centre capability.

This highlights the crisis that Management have created for themselves. It could be a long hot summer :E

TALLOWAY, what do you think up there that the 'OCT' deal that TC got was and that you will use as a precedent?

I understand our local union reps have copies of the 'agreements' and so expect them to be going in to ask for something similar.

I bet AC didn't move for a paltry non Op AAVA here and there, and although I concede that the OCT for TC was probably very limited since they were going with like for like kit, I am sure they didn't do it for nothing either.

For the benefit of us all, you could always tell us what you got ;)

From memory, nothing.

Latest from the scientific Pension vote poll http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

Poll Results latest http://www.drfun.com/breaknnews.gif


NO ....83%....105 http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

YES....17%....22 http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/sowee.gif


Remember this, Management have gone from "there is no other option if you vote no" to "It depends on the size of the No Vote" ... FACT not fiction ! So what does that tell you? Basically, they have another option and have been , lets say, economical with some of the facts and will be caught out if the no vote prevails!

Ask yourself, how safe will my job be if this deal goes through and NATS is sold off ?

If you vote yes, you are a turkey voting for XMAS

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ert/Turkey.jpg


Vote Here http://static.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon2.gif
http://snappoll.com/poll/301858.php

VOTE NO http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

MERRY XMAS

Talloway,

it's people like you who stir up ill feeling between units amongst those who are easily led.

Proof? TC received nothing for moving, mind you it seems TC is the only area unit that accepts it is a mobile grade...:ugh:

A few things about your assumption.

1. The kit isn't 'like for like' - in fact we still have lots of issues with the VCCS more than a yeardown the line, we had training on days off for the new kit before we moved. Unpaid, covered by clawback.

2. TC got nothing, nada, zip for the move over and above the normal relocation package.

We just got on with it... the usual attitude that TC has about most things.

It's totally incorrect 'statements' like yours that divide the company and cause ill feeling between units, when there is in actual fact, no basis for it.

Fenella

You need to be a bit more consistent - you are the one that waded in with the emotional blackmail, stating that airport workers would be laid off if NSL was sold. The inference you gave was of many redundancies as well.
I think I understood your earlier posts exactly.

You're the one that's changing your statements...

So, now you are saying that they will lose their jobs because they choose not to stay and train.

You are saying that staying within NATS and retaining NATS benefits(which is what you say you want for them), is not worth relocating for?

Fenella,

If you look back at my posts, you will see consistency.

I have said all along that I do not want NATS to sell of any part of NSL. I have also stated that I believe that making the pension costs cheaper (accepting the proposal), is a great incentive to any future buyer of NSL.

I will not be blackmailed by someone who states one day that people will lose their jobs if a 'no' vote goes through, then amends it to 'people might not want to stay with any new contract owner'.

I have said all along in this, people should vote for what they believe is right. I have not tried to emotionally blackmail anyone. Even when I have said that NSL is a better propostion for sale if the pension proposals happen, I have clearly made it understood that that is my belief, not a definite like the first few of your posts infer.

However I will tell you what is definite... That's Mr Barrons previous history of taking large companies, breaking departments into seperate subsiduary companies, closing the pension schemes, then selling off the loss making parts.

Am I the only one who does not see similarities or a possible trend??

Thank you Roffa and anotherthing for clearing up the TC lack of reward. As I say, our union reps have some paperwork regarding various other NERL moves, OCT, etc, and I expect that will be the basis of any local claim. No one is asking for anything over what other people in the past have got, just some parity, whatever that may be prove to be.

So did you move in to a centre using the kit you had at the old one and had been trained for, or was the new VCCS not introduced in to service at West Drayton ?? You also had no need to train on the NODE system. Scottish controllers are going in to a Centre where every piece of equipment is new to them, including a retrograde step to a radar system which seems to have been designed with making everything as difficult and as cumbersome as it could be possible to do, with an unclear picture and some possible safety issues, at least when compared to our current 1970's style one touch equipment.

It's a different kettle of fish then. You obviously owed the comapny time and they took it back. No one here could complain about that either. Our difference is that the clawback days will have already been used for other training which is day to day stuff not connected with Prestwick Centre going operational. So, they will need us to come in for around 5 days of our own time if they want us trained up to move 100 yards across the car park.

I am not giving up 5 days of my time for TOIL which I can't burn off anyway and especially not when I would like to. It's given ad hoc and dependent on staffing, which is probably only possible in the winter months, not the summer or autumn months when they want us to attend. And they have to somehow find that amount of time off for 130 + other colleagues as well in the same time period. No thanks, keeping my days off as per the roster suits me better !!

I am also not willing to forfeit 5 days off for a non op AAVA payment. It certainly isn't voluntary as far as I'm concerned and they have a cheek if they expect me to attend in my own time for a paltry £300 per day before tax (a pay rate which was set years ago and is worth a hell of a lot less in real terms now than when it was agreed). The emphasis is on voluntary. I'm not volunteering for pennies.

I work a 6 day on, 4 day off cycle. Fitting my training in to that is what I would like to do if they are only going to give me a ridiculous and derisory offer to do it in my own time. And I'm not alone in thinking like that.

OK, let's put TC to one side (I'll vote for you to get Band 6 BTW), what did AC and Heathrow get then ??

anotherthing

(I corrected your error!)

You are definitely not alone, and I understand your frustration at the naiveity displayed by those less able to grasp what is about to take place in the near future....if the "Pension deal" goes through

:ok:

Management would relish selling off NSL and integrating EGLL into NERL, I don't know if it is possible though:confused:

I am sure our resident :E expert will quote chapter and verse extolling the whys and wherefores ;)

Talloway

Sorry if I seemed a bit off hand - suffering (valiantly) from man flu.

Not sure about either EGLL or LAC - the fact of the matter is, I would fully support any unit getting paid proper AAVA rate for training on new kit - unless of course that training could be covered on normal rostered watch days and hours, without an impact on service delivery - but we all know that you can't pull the staff out of the ops environment without that impact - ergo you should pay them.

Our VCCS was introdued on 'O' date for TC Swanwick, training was several months before on simulator kit at West Drayton. As it was 'only' VCCS, it was covered either by one of the days clawback (instead of being feed or assessor for TRUCE, or by individual release from a working day.

The scale of training required by yourselves and LAC is/was of course much larger.

I honestly don't know what AC got, nor EGLL... and to be fair any other unit that moved to electronic strips (EGLL was not the first)... I don't know enough about what was all encompassed in the EGLL 'move' (of a few hundred yards) to comment.

I don't think it should be a jealously guarded secret though - if we are upfront with these things, then hopefully everyone would get dealt with equally.

But if management want to progress large scale moves and equipment changes, they need to allow for training and proper renumeration.

Wasn't needed for TC, different kettle of fish for other units. Of course that would mean management being willing to plan ahead and not do things on the cheap (when money is thrown away elsewhere).

As for Band 6 for TC - unless something is done to differentiate the different tasks/units in the room, we couldn't justify it - no way could it be a blanket rate across the room...

and to tell the truth, although my validations would be included in the ones that would be awarded Band 6 (if it was ever introduced, purely speculative based on your comment) and I wouldn't turn it down if it was offered to me (as long as it meant no detrimental effect on other units in the country), I'd rather see the likes of Farnborough or Aberdeen (to name just 2 worthy causes), being given a slightly better deal

Vote NO

Thanks for fixing my error... my excuse is I've got man flu:yuk: (a lesser person would've died by now, I'm sure of it)

I remember the days when we used to go in to work and soldier on with flu :eek:. I wouldn't and couldn't for that matter do it now :} Hope you get well soon :ok:

Vote No - I did yesterday... today's my sleep day... I arrange my flu to coincide with my rostered days off - that's dedication for you!!

FFS this gov are underwriting peoples mortgages now for two years, they can damn well underwrite my pension too.:mad:s

EGLL's training was achieved by releasing people from the operation on their rostered days and compensating by calling in AAVAs.

So not a single mention of pensions here. One for the moderators to move to its' own thread please.

Better give Gordon a call then.

Now how will the conversation go?

Yeah well, I'm avery special ATCO with a 100% guarantee of keeping my job. I earn around £90k/year ( band allowing of course) with the chance to do a bit of voluntary overtime to boost the salary if I get a bit short.

The management want to restrict one of the very few un-affected final salary pensions but only if I get a pay rise (which I expect every year) more than RPI+0.5%.

Oh yes, I only work about 180 days a year as well.

I really am a special case-please help.

Love Band4all.

I'll bet he won't be able to hold back the smile, and he doesn't do that often as we all know.

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

250Kts

Saying that we only work 'about' 180 days a year is a bit misleading.

a - its more
b - if you count hours worked we work in the mid 30's per week... much tha same as anyone else!

Gonzo

As I stated, I did not know what the Heathrow case was. Did EGLL receive anything for when the tower moved??

As I said in my previous post, I'm more than supportive of it, but if these things are out in the open it does a couple of things...

a. Stops the rumour mill and gets the facts out there... there is nothing like a rumour or two to foster ill feeling between units, more often than not ill-founded (as per when Talloway thought TC received some payment for either training on new kit and/or our move).

b. It might help others in a similar situation secure some payment :ok:

Yes, we got a coffee, tea and soup vending machine that is now free to use, as opposed to 10-15p a pop.

:}

Brown:

"WTF? Millions of voters getting their summer holidays ruined for the sake of £50m pa?"



The government is admitting net borrowing will be £118bn in 2009/10 so does anyone really believe that those millions of votes would be put at risk in an election year for the sake of such a relatively tiny sum?

The idea is utterly ludicrous!!!! :ugh:

Whats 'scientific' about a poll anyone who has access to the Wide World Internet Web Thingie (nearly the whole world) can vote on?

BD

Old chap :rolleyes: I honestly think you have no sense of humour. Not everything on this" rumour" site is for real:). Lighten up, unless of course the poll is worrying you? :E Poll Results latest

PS I keep getting you mixed up with eglnyt

PPS It's actually quite worrying that you think the "poll" was intended to be scientific:8 and not just a bit of fun :ok:

MERRY XMAS

Ok how about 181 attendances for a 24 hour unit? Close enough?

True enough BD.

The NATS forum poll however, whilst subject to the vagaries of sampling size, still shows around 2-1 against the proposal.

Ah, but there is actually a subtle link. People who perceive that NATS are shafting them over their pension are very unlikely to want to continue to provide goodwill or to continue to sell themselves short. This will have a potential impact on service delivery and project delivery in the future and NATS might find itself struggling to provide the everyday manpower it needs to satisfy its management bonuses and the needs of its masters.

250Kts

still doesn't address the hours of atendance issue though... same amount of hours, just squeezed into less days :ok:

Gonzo

Thanks for that - there had been rumours flyng around on PPRuNe and at other units that you guys got a 'sweetener' by way of a cash bung.

I don't care either way but when things, true or not, are kept secret/not clarified - it does sometimes get other people who face similar experiences a bit worked up... it does senior management no end of good if the coalface workers bicker or whinge at each other!

Can't believe you get free drinks though - might give up my second sector now until TC is given equal treatment!!

Because lots of our shifts became longer (more early starts with the same core finish time, more late stays with the same core start time), we're working more than the target hours per week, so we generated TOIL from our WP automatically for the first two years until the OR was raised. We had the option to sell that back.

I guess that's what the 'bung' came from.

Oh, and one is a tea drinker, so one has not sampled the other offerings, but one classes the free tea as slightly more palatable than what one assumes horsepiss to taste like.

A sense of perspective require methinks.

The government is borrowing massively to help make sure people can eat, keep warm and have a roof over their heads.

An ATCO earning 3 to 4 times the national average wage whinging about the detail of his/her pension - when it will still be more than some working families live on collectively - is not going to have the politicians rushing to "save" them.

Do you honestly think that in a midst of a deep recession, when thousands are losing their jobs every week, people will vote out a government because their flight to Dubai for a golfing weekend got cancelled? As has been hinted at here already, public sympathy for the Porsche-driving controller will not be high.

The government is borrowing massively in an attempt to keep itself in with a slim chance of winning the 2010 election. Why do you think many of the mortgage and tax proposals either run until 2010 or start then?

Labour would look at potential ATC disruption through a prism of its GE prospects.

Me Me Me Me,

it's all realtive, one of the things that attracts people to NATS is the pension, in fact the pension is the thing that stops a lot of people leaving NATS and going abroad.

ATCOs get paid well because they do a difficult job with huge responsibilities - pensions need to amount to a decent percentage of final earnings to allow one to live in the manner one has been accustomed to.

I worked hard to get where I am today, at school, in my first career, and with NATS. I get paid a commensurate wage for what I do.

I don't care if Jo or Josephine Bloggs who dicked about in school leaving with no qualifications ends up stackng shelves for £12k a year.

They should have tried harder at school. For the vast majority of people, things are not handed to us on a plate, we earn them. That includes a good pension, even if it is more As for the governement, they probably don't give a stuff about ATCOs - but would be qworried about the potential damage to the economy.

As for Porsche driving ATCOs - again, they got where they are today through application and hard work. I don't really care about jealousy from Joe Public. (And I don't have a Porsche, just a very modest Japanese car).

Gonzo -

See - it's amazing how rumours start and they can be very insiduous. Free horse piss is still free though... probably a delicacy somewhere in the world!

I don't grudge a penny of salary/pension that any ATCO receives. It's a hard job and is remunerated accordingly.

My point is that, whether an ATCO retires on a pension of £30k or £32k a year is not exactly topping the billboard charts of national priorities in a time of deep recession, rising unemployment and negative equity. Attempting to make it so, would be both unsuccessful and unpopular.

I'm not dismissing the issue - I voted no to the proposals on offer... I just seek a little realism with it.

Your tone of indignation/outrage suggests one who is partial to a degree of conspiracy theory in everything.

If they made massive spending comittments that went far beyond their current electoral remit, would you not be critical of that too?

Of course they want to be re-elected. Yes, the current crisis is helping their chances. Why? Because they are actually trying to do what they can to fix it. They might well be p*ssing into the wind... but at least it's better than the standard political huffing and puffing with very little action that we've all become, sadly, used to.

Me Me Me Me

Understood:ok:

Though I think that anyone contemplating industrial action (if it ever got that far) must be aware that they will not get public sympathy. Especially once the management team let slip that ATCOs get paid up to £x per year.

At the end of the day, I will fight (within the framework of legal correctness) for what I believe is right (trying to balance what I think is best for my pension, my colleagues (present and future) and NATS as a cimpany)- not too bothered about public perception, after all, why care about what the public thinks about any of NATS employees when the public most likely don't have a clue who NATS are or what ATC is!!

I for one don't give a toss about whether we have public sympathy or not in the event of any industrial action. The public don't pay my wages, not anymore anyway....no doubt somebody will now come up with a smart comment about how the public pays the airlines, and the airlines pay us....makes no difference. NATS are PPP, nothing to do with taxpayers money anymore.

No doubt Barron would mount an all out press offensive disclosing details about the amount of time off we get, how much we get paid etc. He will also, no doubt, neglect to mention his whopping pay rise last year, the DB9, the total and utter spunkage (yes, I just made that word up) of money on needless initiatives, award ceremonies and Starbucks HQ. He'll blame the whole thing on (in no particular order) financial downturn, airlines going bust, Osama Bin Laden, greedy Porsche-driving ATCOs etc etc etc.

Am I right in thinking that it would be up to the Unions to counter any such management propaganda?