Stevebbh

I agree - grossly was too strong a word - however in the past 10 years or so, ATCOS (in particular) have seen an increase in wages well beyond any RPI... I don't think obscenely so - I think that we are in no way overpaid. I think the decent wage rises we have had have brought us up to an almost fair wage. (Take away the pension though and that perception changes drastically. Many people see the pension as a payment in arrears).

This has been down to the negotiating skills of the Unions that so many people on here (who have not got off their backsides to become reps), regularly whinge about.

I have always been of the belief that is you are unhappy with something and are in a position to try to do something about it, then you should. If you can't be bothered, then you have no right whingeing! This exactly my beef with those who snipe at Union reps from the sidelines yet won't muck in and offer to do ome work.

more or less the norm on my sector with EGs rendered obsolete by spin shifts, early starts or late finishes.

We'd have needed another 20+ controllers to have covered the shortfall made up by AAVAs in TC in July. Overtime is very cheap labour for NATS, even more so if you add training costs, pension contribution, etc.

Managment need AAVAs more than we do.

One of our guys did an AVAA,then had an incident on that shift.Maybe fatigue was an issue:hmm:.Got the rating suspended and needs retraining.That's what you get helping NATS management out.AVAA's ain't worth it,well not at this low band unit anyway.:}

Well, that's certainly the norm at my unit already.

I personally would like to see pay rises available only for those people who have the minimum unit requirement.

Silence is deafening from the anti AAVA lobby!:ok:

I guess I made some reasonable points then.

Anotherthing: Thank you for recognising what was probably an overstatement! :) and as usual your point is well put. I am interested however in your opinion that controllers are only just receiving a "fair wage". What determines "fair"? Who are you comparing it with? I note you used the word "obscene" in your reply. Although the context is that you don't think the rises have been obscene - it must have been in the back of your mind as an appropriate word to use.

I have to say I was more than a little amused when I read that in a previous pay round NATS senior ATCO's got a huge pay rise on the back of a reduction in the pay for student controllers as any rise had to be "self financing". Excellent negotiating as this will of course reflect through in final pensions - which they would be a whole lot nearer on time served.

The capping of pensions I mentioned in my previous post would prevent this from happening. Of course contributions would be capped to meet the maximum pension to be paid.

Before I get going on AAVA's (at Area52's request!) can you clarify one point for me? Is overtime paid for the hours worked in addition to the AAVA for turning out on a rest day?

SteveBBH

AAVA's are paid at a flat rate for the whoel shift, though there are 1/2 AAVA's as well (obviously for half the shift). There is no hourly rate on top it's a one of payment.

As for obscene, you keep picking me up on my use of over the top words!! That was again over the top, but an outsider may think the way our pay has risen dramatically over the past 8-10 years is obscene. It's well above inflation with some very good deals even recently. However before these rises we were not in receipt of a great wage (though I admit, we were not grossly underpaid!!)

I think it's a fair wage in that I do not think we are overpaid by any means - a fairly direct comparison would be to airline pilots... when you consider workloads etc I think an airline captain and above gets a much better renumeration than an ATCO at the top of the scale.

I also do not think we are greatly underpaid, it depends who you compare us to. For the responsibility we have, I do not think another £10k or £15k would be unreasonable.

It's extremely difficult to quantify - who do you compare yourself to? Firemen/Nurses/Armed Forces - we compare very favourably... Pilots/Salesmen/bankers (not management) - we compare badly to...

It is a very difficult thing to quantify and the best way to think of it is do you feel very underpaid or overpaid?

If not then it's probably a fair wage, the use of the word fair does not infer that it is correct, just in the ballpark

Anotherthing: You should have noticed the little red fella sitting above my post! You can guess that there was a little devilment in there too!! :) But another £10 or 15k !! That is more than my daughter gets for a 50 hour week looking after a lot of ATCO's children at a local nursery!! :*

Thanks for the clarification Area52. So what does the AAVA work out to be per hour then? £65? Has there ever been a case of 'if I go sick you can get an AAVA for covering me and it is my turn next week'? The budget for AAVA's at Swanwick is reported to be the equivalent of 50 average ATCO's salary for a year (30 top of scale). This is nearly double what is being spent on ATCO Towers (bedrooms). An opportunity for inappropriate behaviour to proliferate if ever I saw one. ;)

Are there discussions going on to introduce a shift pattern that properly distributes the Ops rooms staff to meet traffic levels? More during the day fewer at night? That would reduce the need for AAVA's surely? Or should this be the subject of a new thread? :confused:

Yahoo

I work at a band 5 unit (TC) - never hidden that fact and I have also never hidden the belief that although I think there should definitely be a differential in pay between some units, I think the banding system per se is unfair.

I think that all ATCOs are well paid, I don't believe £100k would be too much for a true Band 5 unit (in answer to SteveBBH), however although fairly well paid, I believe some lower band units deserve more money. However that is subjective on my part and not an argument I am willing to get into - not because I am scared I will lose it, but because all units at lower banding feel they should be better paid - not neccesarily at band 5, but more than they are. I have my views as do others - we are all entitled to them - doesn't mean my views are correct.

Suffice to say - I believe a pay differential is fair within NATS, but I do not believe it is done fairly at the moment. Do I know how to fix it - (I don't mean a quick fix of paying lower bands more immediately) - the answer is no.

SteveBBH

I did notice the devil, as it happens, however you were right to pick up the use of sensationalist words such as obscene and grossly!!

However as I stated above - I don't think a £10k rise for Band 5 to £100k top of scale would be over the top. However I sympathise with your daughter - as I stated in previous post, you can compare with any number of different jobs/responsibilities to make it fit any argument. (I have a cousin who is a palliative care nurse for cancer patients.. gets paid mid £20k for a harrowing job I know I could not cope with - do I think that's enough - of course not)

AAVA per hour at a band 5 unit ranges from £78 to £61 per hour depending which shift you get called in for - thats approx £47 to £36 per hour after deductions.

AAVA's certainly at TC are not biddable - you get asked on a rota system - if you are eligible through SRATCOH then it's whoever holds the correct validation and is top of the list... cascading down until someone accepts.

If you are off sick, I believe there is now a thing in force where you cannot get an AAVA for 2 weeks afterwards.

As for the amount of AAVA's maybe equating to 50/30 average ATCOs possibly true figure, however by using AAVA's you have enhanced flexibility - one ATCO might only be valid on a couple of sectors, whereas from within the pool of AAVA's you have validations for every sector.

To man the OPS room fully at all times would actually cost the company an awful lot more by using full time staff than it does by using AAVA's - because ATCOs are sector specific.

Night time manning is vastly reduced and the people who do not do nights 'spin' onto other watches, thus complementing numbers... this alleviates some of the problems but not all.

Have you never thought that NATS are being sneaky and the benefit of ATCO Towers is the production of future ATCOs' :E?

fair points indeed!

However how as ATCO's do we pay for our salary increases through our savings? We cant work more hours, we still need state of the art kit (or atleast kit that was state of the art when it was ordered a decade ago!)

Just a thought!

The sectors I do or work beside are already cut to the bone on nights. One person going sick means the sector/airport is shut for an hour or more.

Anotherthing: Ha ha ha!! ATCO Towers a future controller-making strategy - I don't think NATS would think that far ahead!! Nor have they thought it fully through I fear! :( And thank you for putting me straight as to the meaning and function of a spinner, I often wondered.

Me me me me: well said in your final paragraph! The total salary bill has to be found from within the business and it is often job cuts and greater pressure to work longer hours that is put upon those at the bottom end of the business that funds the top end pay rises.

Think on this - 3 ATCO's getting an extra £10k (2 if £15k) means that there are two less MSG7's to support the day to day running of the Ops room. (Not all support staff are ATSA's). Who will do your replays, LCE's etc? It is all too easy to bandy around what may seem like a relatively small figure (to you) that is the entire income of another just as important member of your own support staff. Rant over...

The Band 5 Atcos have shafted their own collegues in lower band units,by voted for pay deals in the past.It's not just MSG7 that are effected.The pay differential Band 2 to Band 5 is about £25K+.Our Band2 Atco has to be multi rated,and if you look at other units,then we do the second rating for nothing.
Do Atcos get fairly paid?Well I can kill a lot of people,and the stress can have long term medical implications.Band 2 is reasonable until you look at other pay scales within Nats,and then it looks ridiculous.
If there was a level playing field,and everyone was treated fairly,then there wouldn't be a problem.However the Band 5 units will always get the silver spoon,at the expense of everyone else.

Band 5 units are busier and more stressful than band 2 units.
The only sympathy I have there is for people at band 2/3/4 units (towers) where the approach function is done at TC and so their old colleagues who used to work at the same location moved counties and got band 5 pay for breathing the same air and using the same loos as TMA/swanwick controllers.

Nats Pay Round
 

Anyone heard anythingabut Scottish/MACC getting band 5?

Mr Barron and the divided staff he leads
 

Mr Barron must be reading this thread, laughing over his new pay deal, thinking we are gonna be easy targets... Ladies and Gents, a friday proverb... Together we fight, divided we fall... ATCOs, ATSAs, all non op staff, Band 5, Band 4, Band 1... Who cares what position you are in NATS.. You need a pension... And no matter what your wage, the new pension deal will not be as good as the existing one. Thats the fact we all have to remember...

(Oh and by the way, in my humble opinion, if people in Band 2 units want Band 5 money, move to the south of england and revalidate... Then you can have it! I personally would leave my band 5 unit for a return to my origins (band 2 unit) , but cant get it because it is full of people who are happy to be in the regions and near their families) Last I heard LACC were gagging for atcos... Everyone here agrees its short of staff...

having just spoke with a union rep on our watch, although not involved directly with the pay talks. he seems to think that the union has the balls to call for a strike..... hmmmmm, still not 100% convinced.
he also said that we will know by the end of august the outcome for all of this. so hopefully not long to wait for the first offer of stiffing us.....

I hope thats tongue-in-cheek! As someone said above, divided we fall!

What about all the ATCO's who are married to ATSA's? You think they'll vote for that?

Lets get serious
 

YAHOOr:ugh:


Have you got anything sensible to contribute to these forums. There are ATCOs, ATCEs and all other grades at the CTC.
As for the thread, I would suggest a 1 year deal RPI for 2009 then perhaps a 3 year deal with benefits in the Olympics year.
No changes to Pension or satifactory safeguards for those in the current scheme if changes are allowed. Though I think that would be a difficult task.