300kts? 290kts? The actual speed makes no difference aslong as its one you know the aircraft can fly. The point is "maintain high speed" could mean 260kts to the first one when the one behind is doing 300kts. If you tell the first one 290kts or greater and the second 290kts or less then they'll never be a problem.

Tonker....agreed!

"Finals" would suggest we are about to perform more than one approach at the same time.

Trivial PursuitS,

or to cringe at the worst one of all.............

DeanS Cross..........

'Fully' Ready :* Number one super dooper really, really annoying hated term!
'Fully' Parked (as opposed to what?) :*
'Fully' Established :*
'With you' :*
'And..XXX123 request taxi' :*
'Dean's Cross'

If one is unsure of our cleared level what is best? 'Radar....for crew co-ordination please confirm cleared level for ABC123' that seems to be trendy nowadays seems a bit long-winded?

What about;

"On request of the next sector, fly heading..."

do we really care which ATCO is asking for the heading? surely its a seemless service?

but thats so we don't look like the numpty who needs the heading! :E

i do use "at the request of the next sector" when i've cleared you to your cruising level and the next sector can't take you at that level at short notice. Its to say i would get you to your requested level if i could but the next sector won't let me.

Kiltie, FL370,

Agree re Deancross however if you use Aerads you'll find that they are guilty of adding an S too on one of the GLA plates (possibly climb gradient page).

On a slightly different note, do you think shop attendants have a forum where they complain about their customers' verbose and superfluous statements?

And finally, re. the use of 'go ahead': At many of the airports we operate from ATC pass the IFR clearance while we are taxiing eg. "Rhubarb124 hold A1, your clearance when ready." What would you suggest is the appropriate RT response?

sr

Pass your message?

Fireflybob - correct. Prefixed of course with the "Hold A1" bit. Or "Hold A1, standby..." if you're too busy.

Or of course, why not throw CAP413 out of the window and say "READY TO COPY" which sounds much cooler.

Apparently. :rolleyes:

I've just done 2 sectors and heard half a dozen aircraft start a conversation with "Rhubarb 123 STANDING BY for descent."

Why do they not REQUEST descent? Is this some form of misguided hint-dropping to controllers that they should know everybody's optimum top of descent point and to waken up?

In the UK: "turn right HEADING 020 DEGREES"
PLease lose the "degrees "part if you are issueing a heading and not a turn.

Correct is: ABC123, Turn right heading 020.
much safer as it avoids thinking you need to turn 20 DEGREES!

not entirely our fault. Its a NATS thing wereby we have been told to say degrees at the end of every heading that ends in a zero. Its supposed to stop confusion between headings and levels. It does work where the holding headings are very similar to the levels of the sector.

There seems to be an aversion to the use of the word "Request", also as in "Is there any chance of FL XXX, we're in moderate turbulence at blah blah blah!"

Why NOT just say "REQUEST FLXXX" ? or "REQUEST Descent?"

despegue

Correct is not.

When you are flying in UK airspace it is correct protocol to use the word "degrees" at the end of a heading that ends with a zero for the reasons given above.

1985 - it's not just a NATS thing but a rule developed by the authority for pilots and controllers overall. However, it's well known that NATS promote the use of "degrees" with every heading, which is not strictly standard but enhances safety nonetheless.

Artie Fufkin
 

Totally agree with your "at the request of the next sector". Garbage like that has joined the hundred and one other useless bits of crap that we hear every day. Life's too short to worry about whether the pilot might think my personal judgement might have been wrong....I credit pilots with more intelligence....they KNOW how busy it is up there!
I'm not going to break into tears if the next sector can't take my traffic.

hmmmm...my best one so far....I enquired why a pilot had taken descent without my permission....his answer...."I couldn't get a word in to request it so I took it anyway".....cheers mate!!!!:ugh::ugh:...about that aircraft in your 1 o'clock 3 miles....:ok:

XXX clearance delivery---Rhubarb124[if initial call] hold A1-- ready to copy"



or alternately,

Roger Wilco xxx Clearance Delivery --Rhubarb124 ---we are standing by full ready---we are to hold short at alpa 1---standing by ready to copy at your discretion over:}

PA

It's not a "pet hate" per se, but since I've had my (female) trainee with a french/german accent [which I'll admit sounds better than my australian one] I've certainly heard a lot more non-standard phraseologies while sitting behind her.

Things like "please" and "thank you" and "if it's not too much trouble" :rolleyes:

Alwaysvalued, working southern NT and Northern QLD perchance (ASP<->CNS)?

Excuse me for being in the wrong (I suspect) but had a situation when I called London with 'maintaining flight level 180, heading 155 to avoid weather'...London insisted on it being 'heading 155 degrees' - is this new?? or have I been getting it wrong for yonks??

As I understand it, the word degrees is added to any heading ending in 'zero' here in the UK, or just for extra clarity even if ending in a 'five'.

pp

727 exec your initial transmission was correct. It is specific only to NATS controllers to add "degrees" to headings ending in a five, you are under no obligation to do so nor breaking any rules.

I don't think we are under a requirement to do so just a suggestion from opps. That said if i add degrees to every heading i give i'll never get confused about wether it ends in zero or a five. :ok:

Capt Claret
sorry, missed your question til now.

yep, that's part of the area we look after. She is one of the global recruits, overseas she worked radar in 100 square miles of airspace with one frequency (mostly approach type) - So Airservices in their infinite wisdom have placed her in my airspace - mostly procedural, 1400 miles from top to bottom, with 13 frequencies to look after. :rolleyes:

So if you have both circuits active you don't mention left ? Doesn't sound like a very safe way to operate to me....

circuits
 

And when right-hand is the standard do you switch it around?

Secondly would you expect all the pilots around you to be of the same opinion as yourself in this issue?

Personally I don´t mind people reporting both left and right as long as they say the correct one :ugh:. Not taking much freq-time and always unambiguous.

(Note the fancy word in the end, guess you spell it like this)

Just my opinion

A minor gripe this one but at airports where there is no ATIS pilots call (on the ground) and request "the weather" - do they mean "take off data" or even "surface conditions"?

... or even "request departure information" (which is what CAP413 suggests) ...


JD
:)

Scrubby
 

Any American "checking in level FL 350 with a bumpy ride"

Scrubby: here we are encouraged to file Pireps for the benefit of others -sheesh sooo sensitive :ugh:

"Eh,Cape Town XXX101 requesting a visual ILS approach to 19"
Response was XXX101 report the ils in sight!!!!

London Control to American pilot....



"American XXX turn left 15 degrees and report the heading."

No response.

"American XXX turn left 15 degrees and report the heading."

No response.

"American XXX London control, turn left 15 degrees and report the new heading!!"

"Errrrrrr Just trying to get you a reallllllll accurate one here.... Errrrr heading 1....4....3"

"ATC- (Laugh) yea thanks!"



You just gotta love em!

@ A32Oriental
Quote: "2 circuits at the same time...... are you kidding me?? "

More to the point, are you kidding us ? :confused: As John McEnroe said, "you cannot be serious ?" I assume you are not an ATCO in the UK then ?

Helicopter circuits at EGBO are right hand, fixed wing left hand and both are often active together.

Quote:

---

Downwind or base is always left, only include 'right' when its a non standard right hand circuit!!

---

Quote:

---

The rule is straightforward. When the standard circuit is right hand you always add 'right'.
Yes, pilots should be aware of this. It's in the manuals, should be in yours too.
2 circuits at the same time...... are you kidding me??

---

What's the problem with using both circuit directions at a controlled aerodrome? Often has advantages.

It's not a "rule", it's an RTF procedure, as described in the ICAO Manual of Radiotelephony...

"When the traffic circuit is in a right-hand pattern this should be specified. A left-hand pattern need not be specified although it may be advisable to do so if there has been a recent change where the circuit direction is variable".

2 s

"ABC123 report YOUR heading to London...."
With a big emphasis on "your". I mean seriously, who else's heading is the pilot going to report?

"ABC123 turn left 10 degrees and report the new heading"
As opposed to the old heading?

"ABC123 stop climb initially FL90"
Usually said when the controller has made a mistake or the traffic scenario changes and needs to stop the aircraft off. I can see the logic of using "initially" when aircraft are in the region of cruise levels and get stopped off after being cleared to cruise but in a TMA environment? It sounds silly.

Or my pet hate...
"ABC123 can you just stop your climb FL90 please?"
Again, said when the controller has cocked up. As if they ask nicely it won't look so bad. Trainees have a habit of doing this. I've seen the point hammered home in reports where "[Trainees name], can you just do the job properly and use standard phraseology please?" has been written :E


And I witnessed a trainee perform the following exchange which made me cringe.
"Thai XXX, expect a couple of spins at XYZ, bring back the speed now"
"Say again"
"Thai XXX expect a couple of spins at XYZ bring back your speed"
"Thai XXX not understand, say again"
Trainee now getting a bit irate... "Thai XXX, bring back the speed, you're going to hold!!"

Long pause....

I take the RT.

"Thai XXX hold at XYZ, reduce to minimum clean speed"
"Hold at XYZ reduce minimum clean, Thai XXX"

I think it got the point across? The trouble is that the trainee had been using the same phraseology for well over 100 hours of training and nobody had picked him/her up on it! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

A simple "congratulations" response to pilots reporting "approaching" or "fully ready" normally resulted in a much older voice coming on the frequency with the correct phraseology, and I like to think, a cuff over the ear of the chap sitting in the right hand seat with an accompanying, "stupid boy".

On the beach :ok:

It may be apples to oranges, but in the US, where many airports have parallel runways, this isn't uncommon. Only today, we had 2 planes doing patterns on one runway, with 2 more on the parallel runway.

I understand that LHR normally uses one runway for arrivals and the other for departures. Is that the case at most other UK airports?

In some places in Asia if you are at the holding point for the runway and transmit " Tower XX123 ready" they will always come back with "XX123 report fully ready" ...does my head in.....fully.

"Can we have 10 mins slot extension?"

agree, stupid RT. Minimum clean, min approach or a specific speed is correct and understandable.

Metric Altitudes
 

Not a "pet hate", but what is the correct way to announce your level when flying a metric altitude in, say China.

C/S "ABC123 maintaining FL8100 meters" just doesn't sound quite right!

I just say I am maintaining 8100 meters (no FL prefix) but as I note all the operators out of Hong Kong talk of being at a metric Flight Level I assume they are correct, but are they?

Thanks in advance.