New Heathrow Tower
 

According to NatsNet the new tower is up and running. Why are the pages of PPRuNe so quiet on the subject? Surely someone has something to say about how it's all going. Even Gonzo is quiet. Is it actually running so smoothly that all the armchair critics have had the wind taken out of their sails? Or is it all so appalling that NATS have imposed a vow of silence on everyone at LL?

All the posts so far on Heathrow Tower seem to have ended up in spotters corner or spectators balcony what ever they wish to call it.

Seems to be running smoothly, at least as far as approach are concerned.

Normal spacing and minimal delays.

It's as expected. plenty of shortcomings have been identified and reported on. It was quiet yesterday morning, and demand never reached a level such that the flow would kick in, so they cancelled the flow (I guess so that they could look good..."Hey, look, we cancelled the flow!")

Nothing out of the ordinary happened, although T4 was getting up to its usual tricks at one point, and we were monitoring that pretty carefully.

Guess it will be busier today. Plus IK get to have my first go with it, rather than being on the desk.

Yeah the two threads in rumours and news were obviously not news so were move to the airports and routes forum and the spotters balcony:confused:

It was my first day of controlling yesterday and the air positions were fine, delivery is good with DCL, Ground on the other hand was not as easy as I recall from the old tower. But hey at least some people on my watch remembered this was my first day of EFPS :ugh:

What amused me was the BBC coverage of this event on the lunchtime news on the day the new tower was implemented. Cannot recall the name of the "expert" answering the questions but I thought he did a good job when asked fool questions like "Why do controllers actually need to see aircraft when so much of it is computerised?".

It's a perfectly valid question, given their target audience.

fireflybob,

It does sound a silly question to those in the know, but I wonder what Joe Public would say if we asked him or her to describe what they thought an Air Traffic Controller actually did?

Lack of knowledge by the public is one of the reasons why NATS will be hard pressed to get enough people to self fund a course, which is the ultimate aim of the management.

If you go on a bucket and spade flight you can buy little plastic dolls - they have pilots, stewardesses and 'ATCOS'... the 'ATCO' is invariably wearing a white overall and has bats in his hand :ugh: :ugh:

So it was actually probably quite a good question, because it would make the person answering desrcibe what goes on in a little detail!!

Sorry Gonzo but the reason the flow was cancelled had nothing to do with "looking good" as you put it but was done because it was decided, the the Tactical Airport Co-ordinator that it was not needed.

Also, there have a been a whole lot of positive comments about the new working environment, including a number of controllers actually saying that they look forward to coming into work again. In a move as large and complicated as this one, there were always going to be a few issues (it would be churlish to expect none) but to say that there are loads of shortcomings is a bit unfair.

It seems that there only the naysayers post here, and I fully expect them to come back with a personal attack on me as they have in the past for saying this, but the transition has actually gone better than could have been expected up to now (which is a massive credit to both the transition team and the operational guys who have done sterling work since the switch) and the NVCR is proving to be a great place to work.
P7

P7, but why cancel the flow if the traffic is never going to get to the level where the flow measures would kick in?

It makes no difference. But having cancelled it, they can then put on NATSNET that flow was cancelled. So maybe I'm being cynical....don't want to change the habit of a lifetime, do I? :E

Also, what message is that sending ATCOs who haven't worked in the NVCR yet? If I was on leave and heard that flow had been cancelled already, I'd be rather concerned and feeling under pressure.

Yes, the transition has gone well, I'm not arguing that. There are good and bad points to it being a working environment. Personally, the good don't outweigh the bad at the moment.

Well day 2 was better than day 1 for me.

Still concerned about using it when it is very busy but for regular traffic all is good.

Gonzo
Really? Given your repeated prophecies of doom on here, I was half-expecting the thing to sponteneously combust the moment you all took residence.
Instead, we are providing you with 95% of normal declared inbound capacity, and you appear to be handling it with no apparent problems. I'm also watching plenty of contacts emerging from the middle of the tube, so it doesn't exactly look like you're slacking on outbounds either. To us uninitiated fools on the north side of the M4, it looks like everything is going according to plan. Kind of like it did at Stansted...and Gatwick...and Luton...
I'm sure this is right (and only to be expected). However, none of these 'shortcomings' appear to the outside world to have any material impact upon movement rates.
Yes I know it would have been better if the transition had occurred in August when the airport was balls out, and significant operational difficulties could have been encountered on day one. For some ridiculous reason your stupid management picked a Friday night in April.
Err, because regardless of what traffic may be offering at any given time, a pre-tactical flow rate which is considered unnecessary will get lifted. This has more to do with basic air traffic network management than it does to do with looking good on the NATS Intranet.
Yes, I imagine you would have been rather concerned to learn that the flow had been lifted...but then you've been concerned about everything from the walk to the tower to the size of the teapot, so this is hardly ground-breaking news. A more open-minded ATCO might be inclined to think that a lifting of flow restrictions within 48 hours of 'O' date might indicate that the new tower and personnel are coping very well together, and that therefore there was less reason to feel concerned.
The evidence would appear to suggest that thus far the transition has gone exceptionally well. I can only assume this is the reason for such a lacklustre response on here. If it had been a complete fiasco, would these boards have been so quiet? I doubt it.
It is a shame that you found the time to post innumerable messages of doom on here, yet seemingly do not have the time or inclination to congratulate both your immediate colleagues, and the transition team as a whole for what appears to be a job very well done.
It is still early days, but maybe, just maybe, one day you might be man enough to accept that maybe, just maybe, you were wrong.

Anyway, any of you boys and girls got any photos of it operational? If AlanM was in the tower he would be trying to sell the photos on his website by now!

Is it true that your emergency exit consists of the roof and a helicopter? Didn't think so!

2miles600feet,

I'm sure if you knew me you'd understand I'm quite willing to accept when I'm wrong, and I'm actually not in the least bit bitter or close minded.

Yes, I like to keep Ops and Project Development on their toes, but then isn't that how we improve things? By pointing out what we believe are shortcomings and working together to improve them? Please P7 jump in here if you think I'm speaking out of turn.

Personally I don't care what flow measures are on (and no, you're wrong, if I was on leave I wouldn't be the least bit concerned to hear what flow was on or not - I would know that when I'd turn up for my first day, I would have 3.5 mile spacing, and that would be it. Others who hadn't had my level of involvement in the project, or weren't as confident, might not).

People are managing to cope at the moment because there are three, sometimes four, people who an ATCO in position can call on to help him/her, and the L/ops are doing great work in co-ordinating with Apron, especially with towing movements that haven't been input into the system correctly, or flights that are not allocated a stand on our strips because the flight plan is BAW98 and the stand management system has it as BAW098. These are the shortcomings that we keep noting down, so they can get changed, so the system improves. I apologise to anyone if by doing so I'm hurting anyone's feelings.

I think I'm a decent ATCO (OJTI, LCE, EFPS instructor and former WTO), and I have struggled to keep up with both sessions of GMC. I have always said that EFPS will suit more ATCOs more than others, and it doesn't suit me. My strips used to be everything. I cannot now put every clearance limit on the strips that I use, and still have the same amount of spare capacity that I used to have; I'm using more of that spare capacity to keep track of things. I do really hope that the situation will improve in that regard. I don't think I will ever get back to the same level as in the old tower.

I do think everyone involved in the work over the past few years, which to be honest has felt more like damage control than project development, deserves congratulations. Especially P7 and his colleagues for putting up with me! :}

DR,

There was an RAF SAR Sea King parked on 598 all morning yesterday.

Rumours that it had been arranged to provide us with a quick journey to car park 1A are completely unfounded!

2miles600feet

The lacklustre response here is probably more to do with the awful way PPRUNE mods have handled the threads re the new tower.

For some reason it wasn't deemed to be news so the original thread got merged into the spotters corner!:ugh: :ugh:
Yet in R&N, we have threads like:-

Pax cockpit access-what are the rules? (surely belongs in questions yet 3 pages long)
I could go on, but feel that on this occassion PPRUNE have dropped the ball.

Personally, very happy with the new tower, great environment. I have reservations about GMC when BA start to get up to their usual tricks combined with summer traffic, but whatever happens I'll do it with a smile on my face;)

I would imagine their all to busy filling in their two page "Additional annual leave and service delivery plan agreement options"!?! form at the moment to spend much time bleating on here.

A task they were unlikely to have, had they meekly trotted over to the new tower in total compliance!!

Gonzo,
surely all of what you have described above is to be expected. You are in a new environment with new kit and you expect to be an expert on day one!! That is why you have the support until you are comfortable enough to control in a similar way to the old tower (i.e. get your spare capacity back). When EFPS was introduced into Stansted we had minimal support and so many bugs you could fill the Natural History Museum. We worked through it and were able to get back to a normal type of operation within a couple of days. Everyone who used the system for the first time took a little while to adjust but EFPS has developed into a pretty good piece of kit which actually increases the capacity of a controller (I think your colleagues have witnessed this with DCL).
My point then, is to keep with it. I'm sure that within a couple of weeks you'll be glad that you've left that 1950's architecture well behind and joined the 21st century that you and your colleagues have deserved for so many years!!

Chip

Good point mate - I was one of the safety controllers when EFPs went live at SS and I remember NAS failures at least every hour and countless FDEs vanishing. It was really tough for you guys to begin with.

And I am in no way trying to detract from what LL have achieved in saying that but it has been pretty smooth sailing so far when compared with that kind of scenario - and that is because of the countless hours of development, training and general grind that loads of staff have put in over the last 12 months especially. There are a few members of various teams whose personal lives have been firmly put on hold and any basking in reflected glory is wholly deserved.

Notwithstanding any of this, now is the time of the operational staff - and they (despite the prophecies of doom) have stepped up to the plate and shown why some people think they are as good as any others at what they do. They have taken all of those concerns and knocked them into a cocked hat. It's funny, you know, because when we were in the OVCR all the naysayers shouted loudest. In fact, I'm sure that there is an ATCO that should soon be served a hot steaming plate of Baked Hat (at least I think that was what they promised should we successfully transition with EFPS). But now, there is nothing to be heard.

I'm immensely proud of how the guys and gals are coping.

P7

Chip,

No argument from me at all in that regard. There are some really fundamental lessons to come out of the selection/development of EFPS that could very much help future projects. I really hope someone has been taking note of them.

P7, don't think that was me, was it? :}

Great working environment...enjoyed first day. I remember working at LATCC...not so great if you like watching aeroplanes...

Gonzo

Not you mate. ;)

P7

naaahhhh wey maahhhnn t'was not you Gonzo
;)

Good. My bowler and trilby would be very hard to digest!

;)

Can't see what all the fuss is about; it's been done before (Luton, Stansted, Farnborough, Edinburgh)

Aberdeen, Bristol, Gatwick, East Midlands, Liverpool (twice) ...... there must be others.

I can't remember as my memory's not what it used to be, but did all these units who moved tower successfully also have a fundamental change to their controlling procedures in the form of EFPS associated with it?!?:confused: Thought not!!:ugh:

I for one am very proud of the achievement of everyone at the unit, especially when considering that within one day we were back to almost the same traffic levels prior to the move!!

Huge congratulations are due to captain spunkfarter and everyone in the training department, and also to P7 and all the NVCRIs. :D :D

FB:ok:

Ditto! Now get this mixed mode and runway 3 !!!!! sorted out!!
:D

Hong Kong moved the whole damn AIRPORT overnight. Kai closed at midnight and CLK opened at 6 am!
Too bad they didn't bring the checker board with them :}

Did they get anything for the extra travel time:) :p

Gonzo

It's good to know that you 'don't care' what flow measures are on. The flow measures are in place not only to protect Heathrow ATC, but to ensure the wider ATC community (there is a wider ATC community, by the way) deliver the correct number of aircraft to the stack. This helps to ensure that sectors further back up the chain do not get overloaded with aircraft. The only difference between one of your overloads on the ground, and one of ours in the air, is that our aircraft are...in the air. These are the ones that don't tend to stop when instructed.

Interesting. 3.5 mile spacing equates to a landing rate of 38. The declared rate for NVCR post transition is 40. This equates to an average arrival spacing of 3 to 3.25 miles, which once you've taken all the vortex wake spacings out of the equation, means 3 mile spacing between appropriate pairs of aircraft. This is what all your colleagues (the ones that presumably haven't had your level of involvement, or don't have your level of confidence) seem to be coping with no problem.

Another insightful post.

I suppose it is to be expected that someone comes on here and , quite rightly notes, that perhaps the largest and most complex VCR move that the UK has ever seen, invovling not only a new Flight Data presentation method, but also a different perspective, vastly different procedures associated with its' operation and a host of other new systems has all "been done before".:rolleyes:

I think, Chevvron, you'll find that each element has been done before - but not every single one, on the same night, at (whether you like it or not) the busiest airport in the UK.

P7

2mile600feet,

For some reason an oft-quoted idiom regarding wrestling pigs in mud comes to mind.:ugh:

I'm not even going to dignify your caustic post with a response. If you believe your colleagues at Heathrow Tower have as little understanding of wider ATC as you seem to think I have, then nothing I say is going to change your mind.

Speaking of wider ATC matters, have I ever met you at one of the Network Management meetings?

Gonzo

I don't think Heathrow Tower controllers as a rule have as little understanding of wider ATC as you give the impression that you have. I think Heathrow ATC is doing an outstanding job.

I'm sorry that you found my post caustic. I personally found your assertation that you 'don't care' about the agreed and promulgated arrival rate to be extremely arrogant, and whether you like it or not does belie a rather insular outlook against the wider ATC perspective.

I don't think I've met you at a Network Management Meeting. I'm sure I'd have remembered it.

get a room

So it works, but..

It works with flowed inbound rate, and every assistance possible given to the controller.

I am sure it will continue to work in the future. However we have to realise that we have made the task of the Heathrow ATCO considerably harder in moving to the NVCR. I would imagine that in a few weeks when there are no longer loads of "helpers" hanging around, when BA lose the ability to park and we are sitting in a CB its going to get a lot harder.

With the new systems, conditions, lack of facilities and sore feet! .Will we have any chance in attracting training and retaining the staff we need over the next 5 years?

I appreciate that a lot of hard work has gone into this project but it is a long way from being a success, watch this space.

2miles600feet,

Old chap , wind your neck in old son.....

flybhoy....

''I for one am very proud of the achievement of everyone at the unit, especially when considering that within one day we were back to almost the same traffic levels prior to the move!!''

very true.... but EAT's for the majority of the day due to the increased spacing on final. get those down and you have another big tick in a box. i may even buy you an ice cream for doing so well..... :E

W

EAT's indeed ... we were holding en-route for LL today (admittedly not the rarity I make it out to be). However, in fairness, not as bad as I expected, it seems to be going rather well. :D I imagine it is considerably worse for our West Drayton colleagues having pretty much no respite this morning.

All in all - given that teething troubles are normal - surely a well done to all involved for making it work. :D

WW

Well there certainly will be a lot of back slapping going on in Natsmag,Airway whatever it called now,in the next edition.World's busiest International Airport,Blah blah seemless transition blah blah,leading the world etc blah :mad: blah.Give it a few months and they will wonder what as the fuss was about.:E
Yellow Snow,
The Honkers guys got zip for moving the whole airport.Just had to get up earlier.They also had just as complicated a trip through airside.Not even a new pair of boots.Other people just got on with it.:}