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PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   ATC Issues (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues-18/)
-   -   NATS interview process (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/265195-nats-interview-process.html)

tf412 13th February 2019 21:16
Originally Posted by Whispering87 (Post 10387529)
Good news though, the process is changing from April with stages 1 and 2 being online before proceeding to stage 3 interview and anyone who has recently failed can re-apply from April, no need to wait a year!
Is this definitely the case? I also received an email about the change in process, and contemplated delaying until April. However, if it's true that anyone who has recently failed can re-apply, and if the new process will involve FEAST and DART too, then surely it makes perfect sense to proceed with my application and see how far I get. At the very least it will serve as practice!

The Many Tentacles 14th February 2019 05:42
Originally Posted by tf412 (Post 10389167)
I'm currently part way through the application process for Trainee ATCO, but I'm a bit confused about how salary progression would work. If I am successful, I will have to take a fairly significant pay cut for a few years it seems, so I'm trying to work out the ins and out and calculate if I can afford it. As far as I can tell it goes something like this:

College phase – ｣17,000 + ｣60/week accommodation + ｣1,000
On the job training – ｣19,423 to ｣23,307 (depending on location)
Post-validation – ｣37,014 to ｣41,253 (depending on location)
On third anniversary of joining – ｣52,878 to ｣58,933 plus shift pay of around ｣6,500

Now for my questions:
1) How long is the college phase? The NATS infographic suggests 1 year, but elsewhere I've read about 3 months basic + 3.5 months specialism + breaks (so around 7-8 months)?
2) Does everyone get the ｣60/week for accommodation or does it depend on you renting somewhere?
3) Who qualifies for the ｣1000 extra? (When you're on ｣17k, every little helps! But the NATS website suggests not everyone qualifies for this additional sum, without giving more details).
4) Is the 3rd anniversary of joining counted from Day 1 of the college phase?
5) If the answer to my question (4) is "yes", and college + on-the-job training can together take 2.5 to 3 years, then doesn't that mean you aren't on the ｣37-41k band for very long at all?
1. It depends. The tower course is around 6 months total if I remember rightly and the area course is now 9 months. This assumes you fail nothing and all your courses run consecutively. There's a chance you might have to wait for at the course ahead to finish something before you can move on to that stage which will only add to your time at the college,

4. Yes

5. It depends - if you end up somewhere quieter then you can be valid a lot quicker than 3 years and then as a result you're doing the same job as someone else at the unit with the same responsibilities as them for half the money. At Swanwick you're probably looking at nearly three years because it's a lot more complex and you need additional conversion training after the college to be able to use the kit. Count on 6 months at least after college before you get to any live training at Swanwick. After your three year anniversary the pay goes up nicely though.

Lemonair 14th February 2019 08:50
Originally Posted by HannahWrigley (Post 10389571)


2) as far as I知 aware, everyone gets the ｣60 a week

3) Everyone gets the ｣1000 when they validate, again as far as I知 aware
​​​​​​
I did read somewhere that the Jerez lot don't get the ｣60 as it's in lieu of having your accommodation and food paid for in Spain. But I don't know for sure.

tf412 14th February 2019 11:15
Originally Posted by The Many Tentacles (Post 10389439)
4. Yes

5. It depends - if you end up somewhere quieter then you can be valid a lot quicker than 3 years and then as a result you're doing the same job as someone else at the unit with the same responsibilities as them for half the money. At Swanwick you're probably looking at nearly three years because it's a lot more complex and you need additional conversion training after the college to be able to use the kit. Count on 6 months at least after college before you get to any live training at Swanwick. After your three year anniversary the pay goes up nicely though.
Thanks for clarifying things - that's really useful to know. I had previously wondered if the jump up to the ｣52k+ bracket was on the 3rd anniversary of validating, which could have been up to 6 years from joining I guess, so it's very helpful to know that isn't the case.

So, it seems the intermediary jump up to ｣37k is simply to recognise those who manage to validate before the 3rd anniversary (although as you said this effectively means being paid half as much as someone with the same responsibilities, but such is life). However, if I understood things correctly, most people (i.e. where validation occurs close to the 3rd anniversary) aren't on the ｣37k+ bracket for very long at all.

tf412 14th February 2019 11:19
Originally Posted by HannahWrigley (Post 10389571)
2) as far as I知 aware, everyone gets the ｣60 a week

3) Everyone gets the ｣1000 when they validate, again as far as I知 aware
So, even if living with relatives nearby, for example, you could still get the ｣60 a week?

I have wondered why they don't just add this figure to the basic salary during training, but I suspect it's because if it's treated as an expense it can be tax-free, which in turn benefits trainees. It seems this figure hasn't gone up for quite a number of years though.

Originally Posted by Lemonair (Post 10389594)
​​​​​​
I did read somewhere that the Jerez lot don't get the ｣60 as it's in lieu of having your accommodation and food paid for in Spain. But I don't know for sure.
Yep, makes sense.

tf412 14th February 2019 11:21
Originally Posted by HannahWrigley (Post 10389571)
3) Everyone gets the ｣1000 when they validate, again as far as I知 aware
So, this means there is up to a 3-year delay until you are paid this? Which I guess means, when working out whether I could afford to take the financial hit (assuming I get through), I shouldn't take this figure into account.

How do other trainees manage financially in the first 2-3 years, particularly those with a mortgage and kids?

DoStuffAndStuff 14th February 2019 12:01
How are people coming to the conclusion that you can reapply in April if you fail? From what I understood from the email, only if you fail to complete the stages by the deadline or if you voluntarily withdraw can you reapply in April.

Also I'm guessing after April they're going to remove the booklet multiple choice test since it's not really possible to test someone that way at home. Perhaps replace it with something else?

Lemonair 14th February 2019 12:35
Originally Posted by tf412 (Post 10389765)
So, this means there is up to a 3-year delay until you are paid this? Which I guess means, when working out whether I could afford to take the financial hit (assuming I get through), I shouldn't take this figure into account.

How do other trainees manage financially in the first 2-3 years, particularly those with a mortgage and kids?
No kids or a mortgage for me yet but I will be continuing to pay my half of a two bed flat in central Reading so my other half isn't forced to move out and into a house share because of my career decisions.

One of the things that attracted me to Jerez was that the living costs are more favourable (i.e fairly close to zero as food and accomodation is covered) and I believe from a tax perspective it's more like 20% total Spanish tax than about 33% in the UK by the time you factor in NI. Obviously got to factor in personal allowance and things like that. It depends if you can bear to be away from home for that long though I suppose. I believe flights are also included as well as a weekend allowance too. And once I'm back in the UK it will basically be a break even/eat into savings situation paying for two lots of rent at once until I find out where I'm being posted.

I do know they strongly discourage you from taking on a second job for example.

tf412 14th February 2019 22:18
Originally Posted by HannahWrigley (Post 10389850)
I think on 17k you could manage it. It would be like ｣1200 a month excluding the ｣60 a week. You'll be so busy with college you won't have to worry too much about funding like leisure type stuff, so most of what you earn could go to bills/rent/mortgage/food and ｣1200 a month should be plenty for that. I get less than that now and pay for rent/food/bills in the South already and have money to spare so as long as you watch what you spend you'll be fine.
I've no doubt I could manage on that amount if I was single, even if it required me to make some sacrifices. Problem is, a ｣950 mortgage payment and ensuring two little kids have food on the table sadly don't fall into the "leisure" category... :{

Originally Posted by DoStuffAndStuff (Post 10389805)
How are people coming to the conclusion that you can reapply in April if you fail? From what I understood from the email, only if you fail to complete the stages by the deadline or if you voluntarily withdraw can you reapply in April.
I had exactly the same thought earlier today, as that's exactly how the email came across to me too. But then I called NATS to discuss something else and was told that reapplication *will* be possible in April with no need to wait 12 months if you happen to fail at any of the earlier stages. So, it sounds to me that they are making more substantial changes to the selection process than just the way it is delivered, and perhaps someone who doesn't perform that well on one of the current tests might perform differently on one of the new ones. Pure speculation, of course, but that's how it came across.

Whispering87 15th February 2019 08:04
Originally Posted by DoStuffAndStuff (Post 10389805)
How are people coming to the conclusion that you can reapply in April if you fail? From what I understood from the email, only if you fail to complete the stages by the deadline or if you voluntarily withdraw can you reapply in April.

Also I'm guessing after April they're going to remove the booklet multiple choice test since it's not really possible to test someone that way at home. Perhaps replace it with something else?
I'm only going from what we were told at Stage 2 on Monday. If we failed then you can re-apply from April 1st. There was no mention on the actual process changing other than initial stages are now all online, with latter interviews taking place at centres around the country. We were also told that if we passed stage 2 then we'd need to book onto stage 3 before April, otherwise our application would expire and would have to start again come April 1st. Whether that would be the case if you took stage 2 in March, I don't know.

Referring back to the earlier post on whether to take stage 2 before April 1st, I would say take the opportunity for sure. The environment you do it in is great, it gives you a chance to see what's required (assuming the stage 2 stays the same and you don't pass first time) and if like me, only have a small laptop, i'm not sure I would want to be trying to do stage 2 and DART in particular, on that, at home.

ZOOKER 15th February 2019 19:42
Lemonair,

Hopefully I have missed something in this sequence of posts, but forget taking on a second job during your ATCO training course.

It demands 150% commitment.

Lemonair 15th February 2019 19:58
Originally Posted by ZOOKER (Post 10391146)
Lemonair,

Hopefully I have missed something in this sequence of posts, but forget taking on a second job during your ATCO training course.

It demands 150% commitment.
It stemmed from a discussion of how to cope financially if you have a family, I was giving advice not to take a second job :=

gemma96 16th February 2019 13:14
Hi everyone! Just booked my stage 2 and now I'm battling through the booklet.
Can anyone advise on the below?

"1. Boeing 737-300/400/500 series.
2. Seating 300 series, 128 standard,
400 series standard with a maximum 171 seats."

This doesn't give a number of seats for the 500, do I just take it to be 128? I've looked online for the number of seats for the 500 but can't find it anywhere. It's a small issue but I really don't want to get caught out on the test.

YannLePentrec 16th February 2019 14:37
Originally Posted by gemma96 (Post 10391745)
Hi everyone! Just booked my stage 2 and now I'm battling through the booklet.
Can anyone advise on the below?

"1. Boeing 737-300/400/500 series.
2. Seating 300 series, 128 standard,
400 series standard with a maximum 171 seats."

This doesn't give a number of seats for the 500, do I just take it to be 128? I've looked online for the number of seats for the 500 but can't find it anywhere. It's a small issue but I really don't want to get caught out on the test.
Don't worry about that. Just learn what's in the booklet. That detail won't matter, trust me.

Terrier1 17th February 2019 20:55
Originally Posted by gemma96 (Post 10391745)
Hi everyone! Just booked my stage 2 and now I'm battling through the booklet.
Can anyone advise on the below?

"1. Boeing 737-300/400/500 series.
2. Seating 300 series, 128 standard,
400 series standard with a maximum 171 seats."

This doesn't give a number of seats for the 500, do I just take it to be 128? I've looked online for the number of seats for the 500 but can't find it anywhere. It's a small issue but I really don't want to get caught out on the test.
I agree it is annoying there are a few parts like this that don't follow their own structure. I have also looked on Wikipedia for this info and the other info doesn't then match up!!!

I sat a different version over 6 years ago and it was really pretty easy if you had read the info a few times. I am not overly concerned about all the plane specifics, just the general themes and similarities. I am petrified of FEAST and DART though! So as previously mentioned, read what is there and don;t worry about anything else. Good luck!

Flying184 18th February 2019 08:56
Couldn't agree more! The courses are twice as intense as any degree/masters course and require total commitment. There is a HUGE volume of content to learn and understand. As an example my course spent one day at the weekend studying, in addition to at least 2/3hours every weekday night.

I sympathise with your position, but at the same time my course went through the college being paid the old pay scale (｣13k.... ｣900 a month!!) and had to survive! The higher starting salary has come about to entice more people to apply, including graduates.

It may be worth adding that at the moment that whilst the pay increase has happened at the college, once you get posted to unit you get no living allowances whilst training and so in some cases your take home pay may be *less* than at the college (I have heard stories of this being the case). There is also no shift allowance at unit until you are fully valid......

Lemonair 18th February 2019 09:43
Originally Posted by Flying184 (Post 10393372)
Couldn't agree more! The courses are twice as intense as any degree/masters course and require total commitment. There is a HUGE volume of content to learn and understand. As an example my course spent one day at the weekend studying, in addition to at least 2/3hours every weekday night.

I sympathise with your position, but at the same time my course went through the college being paid the old pay scale (｣13k.... ｣900 a month!!) and had to survive! The higher starting salary has come about to entice more people to apply, including graduates.

It may be worth adding that at the moment that whilst the pay increase has happened at the college, once you get posted to unit you get no living allowances whilst training and so in some cases your take home pay may be *less* than at the college (I have heard stories of this being the case). There is also no shift allowance at unit until you are fully valid......
What time do classes tend to start and finish? Is it basically 9-5 for the supervised learning bit? And then the three hours in the evening?

YannLePentrec 18th February 2019 13:23
Originally Posted by Lemonair (Post 10393433)
What time do classes tend to start and finish? Is it basically 9-5 for the supervised learning bit? And then the three hours in the evening?
It's 8 - 4.

norse12 19th February 2019 11:47
Originally Posted by YB24 (Post 10388937)
Hi, I'm currently waiting to sit my stage 2 (currently studying an unrelated course at uni so was waiting until April to sit stage 2), however, I've just had an email stating stage 2 will need to be completed by the end of March and if sucessful, stage 3 by the end of April. Due to uni placements, I could only now sit stage 2 in Feb. What I am wondering is realistically, how long did it take to learn the booklet well enough to pass the test? Whilst I am aware everyone learns at different rates, I am loathed to spend ｣300 to travel down from Ayrshire with not enough prep time but would have to start from scratch with my application in April 2019, if I don't. Any advice appreciated!
YB24 regarding how long it should take to learn the booklet, if you can put aside 5 x 2hr study sessions that should be enough for most. However, a Scottish lad turned up at CTC a couple years ago, HR hadn't emailed him the booklet in advance. They asked if he was still happy to sit the test that day. They printed it out and he sat in the corner for 1.5 hrs reading the booklet, then sat the test and passed! Needless to say he is now valid at Prestwick.

HelenO 19th February 2019 17:21
Hi, Just wondering if anyone who passed stage 3 at the end of January has been given a start date yet?


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