PPL and ATCO Training?
 

Hey guys,

Just came back from my medical this morning and had a PPL medical alongside the CAA ATCO one. I knew that in the past, flight training was a part of the training process, but was unaware that this was still the case. Can anyone shed any light on this matter? Haven't found any mention of it on the NATS site, in the TATC contract or anywhere else!!!

Thanks for your help!

Si

Hi Simon

I an not sure for certain but I seem to remember someone mentioning that it is still included. I will find out sooner or later when I start in September but would be interested to know.

I think they used to give you 10hrs flying.

Q

NATS Flying training nowadays is only for those streamed to Airports (ie Aerodrome or Approach). If you are streamed Area (as is most likely!) then there isn't any flying training in the syllabus. However, if you are lucky enough to be streamed to Airports then you will get 15 hours at either Hurn, Wycombe or Manston. The flying is done between the end of the Basic Course and the start of your next course. This means that you lose a weeks holiday, but for 15 hours of free flying and additional ground school it's gotta be worth it!!
Regards ADIS

Ah Quincy, I may be bumping into you in the hallowed halls of the college soon then! I'm starting in September as well (was schedueled for June, but exams just get in the way of everything!) Cheers for the info

Si

Lucky enough to get aerodrome? I thought the salary was meant to be crap compared to area?

:)

Not crap.

And it depends, some aerodromes get the same as some radar units.

Ah right, I'm heading over to London for the selection tests next month. Aerodrome just seems a lot more appealing to me, nice to know that the pay isn't too bad.

EDIT: (That is, if I get through them :))

It's the same medical. In fact, the ATCO one is the Class A that you need to hold a CPL/ATPL, so it is higher than for a PPL. PPL doesn't include the cardio thingie.
Another freebie supplied by your ATC employer. Cool eh?

Cool indeed! Although I was slightly daunted at the prospect of being wired up.... thought I was about to sign on to the National Grid!!

Wexcan, Aerodrome seems more appealing to me too. Don't know why, just more attracted to it! Fingers crossed for you in your selection tests, good luck!

Si

Thanks for the good wishes. I suppose it's just the whole looking-at-planes-all-day bit that I like, I'd probably grow tired of it eventually. Call it my inner child. Or my inner spotter. :}

I'm already preparing for the tests - I'll be damned if I waste a flight from Dublin. Then again, I'm going for a few days so that I can say it was just an eventful holiday if things go pear shaped. The only test I'd say I'll really feel crappy coming out of would be the cube test. Matching and calculating are fine, just need to brush up a tiny bit on the mental arithmetic. Motivation, well I'd like to think I have that, and I'm poring over the info material and MATS Pt1 to soak up as much as I can.

Simon, I'll tell you why..... It's a proper job, not just a TCAS supplement that the area types do, while trying desperately to justify their salaries....

:E

As a matter of interest, what *is* the difference in salary? I'm surprised that Area gets more, considering how critical the aerodrome stages are and that, if my thinking is right, there's a lot more... thinking involved in gnd/twr/app?

If you get into the CATC how does the streaming process work?

Now now Gonzo, let's not get into an Aerodrome vs. Area B*tch fight. := They do one aspect of ATC and we do another... in fact, looking at all the wonderful weather around us today, I'd much rather be pushing aircraft around on the ground than dodging wx cells etc.

Anyway, everyone knows that us Heathrow types are the best :p

WexCan,

Area (and London airports) controllers can earn up to 50% more than most regional airport controllers.

As to the streaming process. You are told whether you'll go Area, Aerodrome (Tower) or Approach about half way through the basic course. These days the vast majority are streamed Area. How the decision is made as to who (if anyone) is streamed for Airports ... as a Trainee you'll never really know! None of my course could work it out.

Regards, ADIS

Strange, a company directing people towards higher paid jobs. I suppose if the demand is there... The money does seem good but it just seems less exciting. Pity you don't get a choice.

I have scary images of a NATS "Sorting Hat".... in a stylish hypnotic blend of yellow and blue swirls! Fingers crossed I'm streamed down the aerodrome route, have always desired to go down that branch of ATC! Would actually like to see the planes that I'm controlling :)

Si

Sorry to burst your bubble but I have to have two medicals (done at the same time admittedly). The ATCO is still a CAA Class 1 at the moment. The PPL requires a JAR Class 2. The two different regulatory bodies, CAA and JAR, do not accept each others standards.

The physical examination may only need to carried out once but you should get two pieces of paper, one for ATCO class 1 and the other for PPL JAR Class 2.

Yep, I already had a CAA/JAR Class 1 but I still had to have an ATCO class 1.

Gonzo, "cleared to land , cleared to land , cleared to land , cleared to land, etc"
How dull!
Most sectors at Swanwick handle over 60 aircraft an hour, whereas the biggest agreed landing rate i've seen at heathrow is 44 an hour, so maybe thats why we get paid the same.
I agree with Satan about the weather over the last few days, at least you can see it and can get aircraft who aren't through v1 to stop. Weather avoiding at ground speeds of over 400 knots gets a bit tasty, especially when most of the airlines don't like being outside controlled airspace.

I'm not biting pal.

Tower and Area are completely different and shouldn't be compared.

Tut tut. Go back to bed :ok:

quick caviat to the lad quearing the flying time offered by nats

there is a 2 week BA course at the end of your 9 months at college where you will have the chance to take a couple of fan flights around europe, not easy to get in this day and age.

sure i will see you at the college

quick piece of advice start reading the MATS part 1 and the ANO rules section asap will give you a sound knowledge base for the basic course exams.

cheers Roni:ok:

Are these jumpseat flights? :)

Affirm :ok:

Where can I find the MATS Part 1? Is it available on the CAA website?

Cheers for the information on the flights Roni. Looking forward to them

Si

Here you go....

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...=detail&id=222

Well that will keep me busy! 430 pps!:)

Thanks Gonzo, looks like it'll make some light bed-time reading! 430 pages, slightly hefty! Lets get cracking then! :)

Si

Hmph
 

Seems if I do get in I'd prob have to go the area route -website says you need to be 20 to get a radar license, so for me that would allow me to start early 2007 and finish when I'm 20.

Wonder how that works.

When will you be 20? You need to be 20 to hold a radar rating (should that be a 'surveillance' rating in new-speak?), but you don't get one of those until you validate on a radar position at your unit. This could be anything up to a couple of years after you leave the college in Bournemouth, whether that be at an aerodrome where you validate in Tower first, or at an area unit, where it can just take a bloody long time. If you end up working at a tower-only unit, you'll never hold a radar rating, so it's not an issue.

April 2 2008 (Yeah poor little young me.)

Of course Aerodrome seems a lot more appealing - as Simon said you get to see the aircraft you're controlling. But NATS stream about 80% of their intake down the Area route so I hear.
Personally I love area, especially TC. I was flying online just a short while ago and I think the Area controllers have a fun job, giving climb/descent/vector etc instructions. I think I like it because it's very varied and there seems to be an big element of creativity in it. I flew a BIG3B into LL but ended up being directed elsewhere due to me being to high, then orbited round to fly a long downwind due to other traffic coming in which was scheduled for arrival before me. Coming from a design background I love it, it's so creative.
Area is cool. :ok:

Kirk

Hate to ruin your plans Kirk but that's all Approach radar you're talking about there, not Area!

But area is surely similar? (In the sense that the job is to vector/climb/descend... aircraft no?)

Nope, quite different. Area control is about funnelling large numbers of aircraft along airways and making sure that they get their climb and descent at appropriate times, whilst dodging slower aircraft on the same route, and other aircraft from the opposite direction and crossing tracks. The aircraft generally don't change direction that much, although they require vectors to maintain separation against other aircraft. To process the high volumes of traffic in an area control sector requires a lot of procedural planning and separation, whereas approach radar is more of a close-in knife-fight with fewer aircraft, but using radar more and working to closer tolerances of separation than an area controller, using vectors and speed control to keep a finely tuned sequence moving without wasting any space.

If I make area sound like more of a blunt art than approach, well don't let me mislead you. Whilst approach radar requires more finesse and precision, area is the harder discipline to master, and has it's own particular rewards.

Don't think I'd describe ATC as 'creative'. Not deliberately anyway!

TC Area
 

Hi guys
If and when you pass at the college there are two routes that an area controller can go.

One is the one described by Rodan, En-route control which is at LACC (Swanwick!). :=

The second (and my personal favourite) is the departures task done by area controllers at TC (West Drayton). :sad:

As an area controller at TC we do the same job as the Approach guys except we take the planes the moment they are released from Tower and vector, speed and climb them till they get to a point where we can hand them off to the en-route guys who will eventually take them out of the UK airspace. As well as doing this we also control (at the same time) aircraft arriving into TC airspace and vector them to the nominated holds for the london airports. (descend them in the hold and then hand them off to the approach guys.

If it gets too busy we split the sector and deal with either departures or arrivals.

Hope that adds to your understanding of Area.

TFB :ok:

Thankyou TFB. I was a bit confused yes, glad you cleared it up.

Kirk