SVFR in class E airspace ?
 

Here's one for you controller chappies. I was trying to find out the correct way of doing things vis-a-vis night flying (PPL not commercial) through the Scottish TMA i.e. SVFR etc. BUT it appears that you cannot grant SVFR clearances through class E, (although A to D are OK) since the requisite separation cannot be guaranteed, or some such. So my question is: how can a PPL get through the class E at night ? And if we can't, do we really have to climb to 6000ft to get straight into the class D if the MSA won't let us through underneath the class E ?
Cheers DB6

[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 16 November 2000).]

FROM PURE MEMORY.......

Rule 1 of the ANO.

"SVFR - A flight made at any time in a control zone which is Class A airspace, or in any other control zone in IMC or at night, in respect of which the ATC unit has given permission for the flight to be made in accordance with the special given instead in accordance with the IFR and in the course of which flight complies with any instructions given by that unit and remains Clear of cloud and in sight of surface"

UNFORTUNATELY I WAS ONLY TAUGHT TO REMEMBER THAT RUBBISH...NOT UNDERSTAND IT!

Anyway, as it isn't a Control Zone as such you are on to a non-starter here.

No doubt people who know more than me will reply soon!!!! (I have never even been to Scotland!!!)

Here goes.

At night you can only fly IFR, except that you can fly SVFR in a Control ZONE. The class E bit near GLA is a control AREA as it doesn't begin until 2500ft. So you have to be IFR at night.

In a class E control zone you could get SVFR at night. And as it is night any traffic in there would have to be either SVFR or IFR so you would get standard separation. It is only during day that you are permitted to enter class E airspace VFR without clearance.

Do you fly out of Cumbernauld? If so please give Glasgow a call on 119.1 if you are flying under or in the class E airspace. We honestly don't mind as it makes our job of getting the big stuff into Glasgow easier if we know what you are doing.

Well done Bright-Ling - beat me to it! I doubt if I know more than you (or anyone else) though.

You don't need any clearances except the ones you would require if you where doing the trip during daylight hours.
ANY night flying of the type you are talking about is deemed SVFR regardless of airspace. So, just plan the trip as normal and request the usual clearances as and when required.
Regards
FBW

Spotter is correct. You cannot fly SVFR in a control area or TMA. Once you are clear of Glasgow or Edinburgh Control Zones at night you have to fly IFR in Scottish TMA or remain clear.

NOTB

FBW

"Any night flying....is deemed SVFR regardless of airspace"

????

FBW, how is that shown in ANO Rule 1 as per above???

I am now very confused.

2 sheds.......
You missed out the salient bit "of the type you are talking about"

Bright-Ling...........
It doesn't, read the section (ANO) on night flying. (which also used to be RAC 1 - 7 UK AIP)

There is no VFR at night. Any flight operating at night that is not able to comply with IFR procedures ( e.g. pilot not IR rated ) is considered SVFR.

Regards
FBW

"There is no VFR at night. Any flight operating at night that is not able to comply with IFR procedures ( e.g. pilot not IR rated ) is considered SVFR."

FBW, do you mean in a Control Zone?

For clarity, you have to be either IFR or VFR (Rule 22). At night, ouside a *Control Zone* you MUST be IFR (although you only need comply with the Minimum Height Rule (Rule 29) and the Quadrantal Rule above 3000ft (Rule 30)).

You can only fly Special VFR inside a Control Zone, that is where the base is Ground Level. You cannot be SVFR inside a Contral Area, or TMA, or in Glass G airspace.

OK, but I thought that you could be VFR at night in UNCONTROLLED Airpsace such as Class G.

(I know that this is going off the thread slightly, but I am confused!)

Help!!!!

FBW,

"There is no VFR at night. Any flight operating at night that is not able to comply with IFR procedures ( e.g. pilot not IR rated ) is considered SVFR."

If we're talking about the UK here, you can only be SVFR in a Control Zone.

The UK has a separate night rating to allow non IR rated pilots to fly at night. Inside a CTZ, at night, such a night rated pilot can fly SVFR. As soon as they leave the CTZ they must revert to the IFR.

Again, just to make it clear, in the UK SVFR is only available inside a Control Zone.

WF.

As WF says you can only be SVFR inside a Control Zone. You can, however, if you are nght rated, be VMC at night ouside a Control Zone but you are technically IFR, even though you don't have an IR.

Cossack,

Don't confuse flight met conditions, VMC/IMC, with flight rules, VFR/IFR.

At night outside a CTZ it's not a technicality, you are flying under IFR irrespective of your inflight met conditions.

Confused, you will be :)

WF.

Also don't confuse "SVFR" with "SVFR clearance"
Because there is no such thing as VFR at night, in any airspace, a flight at night by a "PPl with night rating" is "considered" SVFR regardless of the airspace they are flying in, including the open FIR. This is not a SVFR clearance as in rule 21 airspace, if you wanted to cut the corner off, flying at night from White Waltham to Fairoaks you would still need to obtain a SVFR clearance from Heathrow ( Thames Radar 119.9 ).
SVFR at night is a technicality used to cover the fact that VFR at night is prohibited.
For further confusion a PPL does not need a night rating to fly at night. He can legaly fly at night if he does not carry any passengers. Not that anyone would...would they?
I, like everybody else will be looking at the ANO tomorrow for the definitive answer couched in the correct ( but confusing ) terminology.
See you all tomorrow
FBW

Sorry, FBW, that's not right.

Within the UK, all flights must either be IFR or VFR, except that in Rule 21 airspace you must be IFR at all times.

At night, outside a Control Zone, you must fly according to IFR. However, inside a Control Zone you can be IFR or Special VFR. This is Rule 22.

It isn't just Rule 21 (aka Class A) airspace that you can be SVFR in, you can also be SVFR in Class D but it MUST be a Control Zone (i.e. down to ground level). You cannot be SVFR inside a Control Area with a base, nor a TMA.

It is a popular misconception that because someone doesn't have a IR they cannot fly IFR. If you are flying at night outside a Control Zone, immaterial whether you have a Night Rating, then you are IFR. Plain and simple. You have to comply with Rule 29 (Minimum Height) and Rule 30 (Quadrantal Rule) - see Rule 28.

And because 'SVFR' is inside a Control Zone then you do require 'SVFR Clearance'.


[typo corrected]


[This message has been edited by Lew Ton (edited 17 November 2000).]

FBW,

I think you're wrong about a UK non night rated PPL being able to fly at night without passengers.

The ANO (it's on-line) offers the following....

1 The following ratings may be included in a pilot's licence granted under Part IV of this Order, and, subject to the provisions of this Order and of the licence, the inclusion of a rating in a licence shall have the consequences respectively specified as follows:

Night Rating (Aeroplanes) shall entitle the holder of a United Kingdom Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or a United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) to act as pilot in command of an aeroplane at night.

Night qualification (aeroplane) shall entitle the holder of a United Kingdom or a JAR-FCL Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) or a United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) to act as pilot in command of an aeroplane at night.

-------

As a basic PPL myself, without a night rating, I do not believe I can fly solo at night.


I'm also not aware of "a flight at night by a "PPl with night rating" is "considered" SVFR regardless of the airspace they are flying in, including the open FIR."

In the open FIR at night it must be IFR (it cannot be "considered" anything else). If you have a reference to the contrary I'd be interested to see it.

WF.

Here's the ANO URL...

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001562.htm


And here's the definitive bit about flying at night....


d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification (aeroplanes).

WF.

Thanks for the thoughts so far, chaps. I instruct out of Dundee and ask the question since I'm doing a lot of night training at the moment and need to be able to tell my students the right thing. The concensus seems to be that you can't go SVFR in class E, only IFR so in this context that simply means staying above MSA (as the transition alt. is 6000ft. and we'd be below that). Does that seem reasonable ? As you can see it's something of a can of worms and I couldn't find an easy answer from the regs.
Cheers DB6

"The concensus seems to be that you can't go SVFR in class E, only IFR so in this context that simply means staying above MSA (as the transition alt. is 6000ft. and we'd be below that). Does that seem reasonable ? "

It's not quite that restrictive. There's an exemption from the minimum altitude rule if you are below 3000 ft amsl, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. I believe a minimum visibility of 5 km at night has been recently added to the exemption.

So if you're clear of cloud, in good vis and below 3000 ft, there's no [/b]legal[/b] requirement even to be above the MSA. That doesn't make it smart to fly at low level of course! But if you have controlled airspace above, it may open up some otherwise unavailable routes.