Area Vs Aerodrome?
 

6 weeks into the ATC college introductory course and i'm already doubting my choice of Area as a discipline. We visited Bournemouth's clockwork and plywood control tower yesterday and still i'm swinging towards Aerodrome/Approach, any experienced ATCOs want to give me some tips on choosing????

Nobody can answer that question for you imho...its a bit like asking should I play football or rugby, personal choice is the only deciding factor.
Hope that helps:uhoh:

edited to add this wasnt meant to be arrogant....I just think you are the only one who can make a choice like that

In the London area the choices are: Do you want to see aeroplanes or do you want to do radar. Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton & Stansted have no radar facilities at the airfields so if you choose to watch the jets you won't do radar.

Good luck with whatever you choose

On my course (98) we were told that 8 of us would be going to TWR/APR and the other 17 to Area Control and just who would be decide towards the end of the Aerodrome Course.

'Twas an easy choice for me, I never wanted to be anything but a TWR/APR controller. So come the end of the Aerodrome Course the course manager came in and said "hands up who wants to be an Aerodrome controller". Of the 22 of us left about 17 hands went up :} ! "Hmmmm" said the course manager. Anyhow they brought in an Area Instructor (John Hallett ???) to give us a talk on Area Control and after that the split was about 50/50. In the end the course manager decided who was going TWR/APR and I was amongst the lucky 8 :D .

Nice of them to give us a choice though!

The righteous way is of course Tower..............:D

Hurn-ia
As squibbler states, in the end it is the course manager and other higher powers that decide your fate. All I can say from personal experience is that I wanted ADC/APR and I made sure instructors etc knew this. Not too sure if it helped, but I was chosen for ADC.
Don't mean to sound negative :( but I think you have very little control on what you end up doing. When you make your final decision, let others know, do your very best at the college and hope that the instructors etc all know how keen and dedicated you are to the job. It worked for me, but maybe that was just coincidence!
By the way, when do you find out who has been chosen for each discipline?

Away from home

I'm going to push for ADC/APP and I've made this know at the mid course interviews. After the visit to Swanwick yesterday I confirmed that area was definetly not for me.
I suppose it comes down to whether you want to look at a screen or out a window. My teachers at school often said I was skilled at spending most of my time looking out the window so I want to stick with that. :}

Your best bet would be to visit some more units before we have to fill in the forms. I'm going to chance my arm at one or two more visits.

I think that makes 10 of us fighting for 5 places. I propose we set up a boxing ring in FG10, last 5 standing get what they want ;)

I don't mean to throw a spanner in the works, but what if you don't get the approach course, if area definitely isn't for you? I don't know the way the numbers split for your course, but when I was there, it was about 3:1 area:approach. More people wanted to do approach than area, however, so a lot were disappointed. There are likely to be a few disappointed people on your course too, I'm afraid.

As for the area vs approach debate, I was happy to get the area course and was looking forward to my posting before I failed Area 2 :yuk:. Now working at an airport instead, and I love it, but I sometimes still wish I'd got through the area course. I like radar work though.

It's a personal thing, go with whatever you feel drawn to. But be prepared to take whatever cards you are dealt.

I was one of the old school to come out with all five ratings, have worked both area and aero and loved both!
Been aerodrome for the last 13 years because I value the life style and area I live in, but I'm still loving it!

But I would go with the others, keep ya options open! When we graduated we were given the choice of eight postings - which really turned out to be in them days; LATCC, LATCC, LATCC........

So Good luck :)

I don't work for NATS these days so I can't be sure but if you opt for Approach you could find yourself at LTCC. And it don't look much different to Area to me.

When I said it definetly wasn't for me, I was speaking in comparison to aerodrome/approach. Whatever discipline I do I'm sure I will enjoy it, but comparing each one, area would probably be my least favourite from what I've seen.

With ten people applying for five places I'm not going to get my hopes up so whatever I get I'll take it on the chin (one of them anyway).

Unlike quite a few from my course!!!!!:mad: :* :ouch: :mad:

FB

What was it that gave you doubts over your choice?

The deluxe tower(!?) at Bournemouth, seeing planes and the outside world, something the staff said to you?
Visit Swanick Swannick Swannik, damn that bottle of Fitou, talk to the staff there. Then decide. Is the option to change available?
If you do the ADC course, and pass, you could apply to airfields outside NATS.....

While pay issues have been fought over, I mean discussed, elsewhere on PPRUNE, there is a big differential between the top of the ATCO3 scale and top of the ATCO2 scale, even before these rediculous bands are taken into consideration.
What has been true for the almost 10 years that I've been in the job is that in the UK, Area is seen at the elite job, hence the best paid. I asked for, at got, APR on my course (97 Course) because I assumed that my abilities lay in that direction, and frankly I didn't want to live in or near London or Southampton!
Now that I've moved accross the pond, I've had to get used to whole new pecking order. And I like it! Terminal controllers are the prima donnas!

Let's say you opt or are chosen for area, you qualify, you validate.
12 months down the line, you realise area isn't what you thought it was, or perhaps area doesn't like you - unless there is a caveat that allows you to retrain on ADC (because you will have l;ost the ADC rating after 12 months if you don't validate it), and APR, you are well and truely in the brown stuff.

However, if you do the ADC and APR, but don't like working for NATS after the validation, you can walk straight into a job at a non NATS unit almost immediately.

The above scenario isn't by any means a common occurence, but it does happen, and should be considered carefully when or if you have a choice of which course to do.

What ADC rating? I think you'll find that when they're streamed now (since middle of this year?) it's down one road or the other - the old ADC rating and then going down the separate paths is a thing of the past.

I am pretty sure there is a dispensation for students on the NATS course that the 12 months doesn't start ticking down on the ADC ticket until you leave the college at the end of your APR or Area course. Not that the Area studes do ADC any more, much to their disadvantage.

I have to agree with Chilli Monster and confirm that you are talking pure tosh!

I was given my Aerodrome Rating in 1988, have never validated it to this date and yet it has just been issued in my new shiny Euro Licence ADV/ADI as issued in 2004!

As regards APP or Area some of what has been written is very true, some is total rubbish.

Virtually all APP units will be within LACC or NPC by 2009. EGPH/PF/PD will be at NPC and EGBB/HI will be transferring to LACC as soon as the LTCC boys and girls come to the sunny south. The only possible exclusion might be the Welshies.

So the question is do I want to say "cleared to land, cleared for take off" whilst reading The Sun for the rest of my life at a band 1 unit or get different traffic scenarios every shift doing 8 or 9 different Area sectors getting Band 5 money reading The Guardian.;)

I know which I'd rather do.

But being really positive 60% of you will fail to validate anyway so don't worry about it!

talk about glass is half empty, Course 201 will all validate, we have to we've already ordered course mugs!! :-)

Doesn't matter where you go.
 

Panic not, NATS is like that old physics experiment in school, Pascal's tubes if memory serves; where water finds its own level.
If you aren't much good at one thing you will be moved to another...... you can have absolutely no aptitude whatsoever to control traffic, even answering a telephone can be a major event.....don't despair.....you will be moved to another unit....your qualities and strengths may lie in a managerial post. Before you know it you will have achieved greatness, but not necessarily the respect that goes with it!
The massive ATC mega-centre is pleased to welcome a chap from the aerodrome world as new Deputy GM, and I'm sure he will guide us to a bright future, finding 68 controllers to cover the staff shortage might be a good start.
By the way, if you have over 45 minutes aerodrome experience there is a vacancy for Watch Manager at Gatwick, and don't worry, the selection process is designed so that ability and competence-to-do-the-job elements are filtered out.

DtyCln

"...do I want to say "clear to land, clear to take off" ..."

I thought you said you had an ADC rating?

I stand to be corrected, but I seriously doubt any course has gone right through without losing some people!!:{ :sad:

The 60% quoted by DtyCln may be a bit high but some people will fail so I would get ready to find somewhere to flog some dodgy mugs!!:cool: :ok:

As for the length of time taken after finishing training, according to CAP744 you must have commenced the unit training plan within 6 months of finishing the approved training course (ie the college).

So there are some people who were on my course who have just started the Area course who will have lost the ADV/ADI rating come the end of the Area section...unless of course the 6 week OJT period is counted as having commenced an aerodrome unit training plan in which case I don't know how long they've got.:confused: :confused:

People on old style licences who held an ADC rating apparently must have "exercised the privileges of their licence" within 5 years or else they lose it, so I don't know why you've got it on your licence DtyCln, but I don't know if it would be valid should you try to use it. But it really is all a mystery to me!!:confused: ;)

FB

Aerodrome / Approach
 

Hello,

This is my experience.

When I finished the training (Aerodrome, Approach and Area Procedural) we were placed according our aptitude, choice and classification in course. Placement was made not according with rating but with working place ... I chose a place where only Aerodrome and Approach (procedural at the time) were available ... others chose a place where Aerodrome, Approach, Area Terminal and Area Oceanic were available ...

After several years I had the opportunity to transfer and I went for Radar Course. Here the only place was the ACC but I could choose between Approach and Area.

I'm now a very happy Radar Approach Controller ... but I miss seeing the birds ... I would, anyway, if had chosen Area ...

Main question is really watching or not the birds ...

Eduardo Ascensão
Lisboa-Portugal

After a 3 (and a bit) year Cadetship I did 36 years divided almost equally between Airport and Area work. The beauty of the earlier Cadet Courses was this across the board training. Without a doubt, I look back on my airport years as the most interesting and satisfying. However, at the end of the day, it is a personal thing. I knew many colleagues who did not like airport work.

With NATS today, much of the approach radar work for the London airfields is being done from the Area centres anyway. That prevents you being the aerodrome / approach controller you might prefer to be.

All the best in whatever you end up doing .... it's a great job to do.

Spink Pots
 

Go for Aerodrome Spinks. I want to go for area !!!!!! I can't wait to see the fight in FG10. I will put a £10-00 bet on you mate !

You are favourite @ 2/5
The rest of the field is priced @ 12/1

COME ON SPINKSY !

[/QUOTE] Goodness gracious, DtyCln, what a sheltered life you must lead down on the South Coast. I'd venture to suggest that the tower controllers at Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Manchester do slightly more than just clearing aircraft to land and take-off - none of which are NATS Band 1 units, by the way. Even the guys at Birmingham, Edinburgh and Luton when in their towers rarely get time to read anything nowadays (you don't read The Sun by the way: you just look at the pictures...).

As for Area being a challenge, yeah, right, in at one end, out at t'other, agreed levels for descent and climb if you're not on a high-level sector, conflict prediction, electronic transfers: no wonder you've got time to read The Guardian! You should try a little taste London TMA Northwest or Southeast - that'd make your eyes water!!

Ultimately, it depends on what you prefer doing - sitting in a large hall, staring into computer screens all day whilst desperately trying to remember what an aeroplane looks like, or actually getting the chance to see a plane out of the window and smell the kerosene.

Horses for courses: the flat or the jumps.

:8

055166k wroted ...Oooooooohhhhhhh ...so young ....... so cynical :E

.......... ..... just play golf with the right people ;) and you'll be all right.

My advice FWIW ...... Go Area ... and that's all you'll ever do.

Go Aerodrome/Approach and you may actually have a choice of future employers, the future possibility (perhaps) of switching to Area (but get your bid in early), and the chance to actually see pointy noisy things. But the big risk is ... you might end up tower only ......

Sure the pay may be less (unless you are at one of the clear to land, clear to land, clear to land, clear to land units), but in the big scheme of things, variety is the spice etc....

If you can get it, Edinburgh or Glasgow would be a fine choice, variety and lots of nice people to speak to on the radio or coordinate with at Scottish .....

and you don't get to live on the pissy wet south coast

:ok:

Hurn-ia
 

It doesn't matter where you end up, you will have a fantastic time; this is a great job.
Aerodrome is fun and has a lot of benefits: you feel part of the aviation scene. On the way home you can recall a good days work which can be as varied in nature as the seasons. It's nice to be able to intermix with the whole spectrum of the industry.
Area is as different as it can be, and at times resembles a giant video game. There is much more emphasis on teamwork, like links in a chain; you depend a lot on your buddies and they on you. The satisfaction is different in nature, more of a commercial achievement.
I miss seeing the planes on my way to/from work at the old West Drayton centre....this new place at Swanwick is a bit sterile. There used to be a programme of Familiarisation flights and liaison visits for operational staff but financial cutbacks some years ago removed the easy availability; now the monies have been re-directed to management training [ this is in direct contravention to a CAA directive that controllers should have the opportunity to become familiar with the type and operating characteristics of the traffic they are responsible for]. I have never seen over half the planes I control......this suits some people: I am surprised how many of my colleagues have only a passing interest in the aviation "scene".....but the professionalism is very very high with rigid adherence to competency-checking standards....it's just at the end of a shift you can just oull out your plug and go home never having seen an aeroplane.
At an aerodrome you feel that you belong somewhere!
Keep up with the bookwork down at the college, you're in the real world now....70% pass means 30% wrong.....and in this job you can't afford to be wrong!
My respect for having gotten this far.....good luck.

This is not a 'cut & dry' subject. There are so many different branches within both disciplines. You could opt for approach and end up doing Essex or Heathrow approach where you would be doing radar all day. If you get to a tower you could end up at either Heathrow or Cardiff which are very different jobs. The same with Area, you could do area control at Swanwick or Scottish or end up doing the London TMA at TC. Again different variations on a theme.

IMO go for area, the pay is better because the job is more challenging.

:p :p :p :p :p :p :p

Don't the college organise some Area and Approach controllers to come and have a chat while you are on your introductory course? It might help a few people make up there minds or at least not worry too much over a decision that is out of their hands.
Ask GM to organise something, there are plenty of Area (LACC) controllers living locally, and i'm sure one or two would be happy for a college visit.

I am pretty sure that the last apr course to leave the college about a month ago all went to TC to work heathrow approach. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have to say that the acs side of things is much more varied and interesting. But I do agree that the visit provided to swanwick is dire beyond belief. I felt like running away when I went on mine. The guy giving the tour was at best bland.We were shown air conditioning units, water pipes (great!) and the only view we got of the ops room was through a window looking down. It was not exactly a good seller of area control.

The best part of two dozen U/Ts all pitching up to do LL - I'll bet the current controllers are over the moon!

No, they're happy cause I left ;)

A good area controller and a good approach controller have different brains. I've had enroute controllers (at TC) come over and watch LL FIN and exclaim "Geezus, I couldn't do that, you're pointing stuff at each other", and on the other side of things, I have sat famil on enroute sectors (radar and procedural) and scratched my head at the standing agreement requrements, speed separation standards and alike. Some are more suited to one discipline than the other. Now, working this out is the fun part.

Spitoon err, 4 actually. All lovely, but just 4 of them. One per watch, except the watch that didn't get any.

If any college students would like to come and see TC (the OTHER London Control), no problem... just ask Sallyt or Graham to sort it out. I promise that I won't show you any air conditioning units!!!

I know that on my course there was a trip to tc organised for those that wanted to go and have a look at tc. This was organised by an area insructor. And i believe they all had a good time. But is acs 2 a bit late to be organising such things.Not the instructors fault i know, but maybe someone on the aerodrome course could set up such a visit?? inbetween "aerodrome lighting and marking 8" and "aftn 14" lessons?? then they might see a different side to area control. Having spoken to courses behind me, they say that the swanwick visits have not got any better.And as such about 80% wanted to go apr/adc, as at that point in training the only knowledge they have (apart from ex assistants and the like) is the visits provided to them by catc.

I have been on both sides of the fence as an area trainee posted to TC where I managed somehow not to validate. I was subsequently posted to a tower only unit (which new guys n' gals won't be able to do as area studes do no aerodrome course (what numbskull thought up that one ?)) where I am now valid and very happy. But, I was desperate to do area and TC was a fantastic experience despite the disappointment of not getting through. Aerodrome control has different challenges but don't let the area boys tell you it is any easier. Aerodromes have their own challenges and whilst (unless you are somewhere super busy like heathrow) you wont be working flat out all day, your busy periods could well match up with the workloads that the AC boys have to endure. Also bear in mind that of the 12 aerodrome/approach bodies trained up every year, six of you will be going tower only, no radar.........whilst this isn't a problem for me at the moment, radar is AT LEAST half the fun of the job. Looking out of the window all day is one of the joys of my job along with being paid a not inconsiderable some for doing something that I love.
At the end of the day, the truth is that they will send you where they think you will be best suited and while you may be asked to express a preference, it counts for little. So....take it on the chin and make the most of it. This is without a shadow of a doubt one of the greatest jobs around with tremendous job satisfaction whichever way you go.
Good luck.

A FUN CAREER
 

My first 15 years in ATC were spent in En Route Centers. I loved it! As a VFR only private pilot, I'd learned that there was such a thing as ATC and it's to be avoided, but little else. Quite frankly, when I was hired, I knew absolutly nothing about ARTCCs. Nothing. We used broad-band radar and shrimp boats and talked to big jetliners. It was cool! Heck, I was cool! En Route is the best!

For the next 10 years, I went into Approach Radar and that was better yet! Things happen at a whole different pace from En Route. The object is to get 'em close - not too close - and slam-dunk 'em til the tower cries "uncle." What a blast! Approach is the best!

Lastly, I did 4 years in the Tower. Not just slashes and data tags; now it's - my God - airplanes! Little ones, big ones, pretty ones and an AN-2. Talk about fun! Tower is the best!

Now, I'm retired and an instructor for Tower, Approach and En Route. I get to work with everyone from kids right off the street to veteran transferees. Now it's nothing so simple as lining up or seperating planes; now it's trying to bring out the absolute best in every controller I work with. And, ya know what? This is the most fun of all!

Whatever option you end up in, I wish you luck and I'll let you in on a little secret: in Air Traffic Control every option is the best! :D

----------- (Pprune: cut along dotted line)

ATC Chat 24/7

Just four managed to last to the end of the course then!

There were only 5 on the course, one was already allocated to EGFF, so everybody passed that started.

When I was on the ADC course, visits could be arranged for small groups to TC, but nobody took up the offer apart from one or two...the glamour was in visiting Heathrow.

When chosing my preferred choice, I requested Area - not necessarily because of the type of work, but because I didn't want to be posted somewhere I would rather not be. I was happy with any of the area centres, so for me the job was not the only aspect worth considering.