July 03 course to become Jan 04?
 

I keep hearing different stories from sources both on here and within NATS............

I am meant to be on July 03 course, but recently heard that a number of us (about 15) will have to start in Oct due to high failure rate on a current course. THEN heard that it's more likely to be Jan 04 :eek: and that they are stopping all recruitment with immediate effect.

Recruitment dept. say they don't know anything, and just to wait and see. Anyone know anything else?

MR XxX

MR,

Where do these rumours come from?!I'm on the Oct 2003 course and am now getting a bit freaked by it all......presumably I'm even lower than you in the pecking order and am thinking Apr2004 now for a start date........which would be fine except I hate my current job and cant hack an extra 7 months,as well as the fact that I am absolutely itching to get on the scopes!
Can someone please enlighten us poor souls who are,apparently,so near yet so far!

P.s. If I dont get shafted,hope to see you in Oct 2003 mate!

Sorry to be so blunt, but welcome to the world of ATC.....

As a very old, experienced controller was once heard to say, "Never let the truth stand in the way of a good rumour!"

The only advice that I can offer is wait for something in writing to turn up. Then wait for that to be superceded by further advice in writing (Sorry, that's being unkind). If you have received notice of a course number (or date), then until you get WRITTEN advice saying otherwise, don't listen to rumours.

The Rumour Mill in ATC is a great thing, especially when you hear something about yourself sometimes. Like dates of when TC moves to Swanwick..........(unkind again, sorry!)

All the best.

?
 

Hi I too am confused about this.
I have a contact who works at the college and say's that the reason for the backlog is because they are re designing the course. I'm not sure how credible this information is though.

Someone else spoke to recruitment today, they reckon they can't give us any further indication until April....................:*

MR XxX

A reliable source at the college tells me that the April course is definitely cancelled and the July one is likely to be as well. Reasons are the re-design of the course and also that NATS can't afford another load of students at this time.

How reliable?

MR XxX

Fraid not alpha

I'm supposed to be on the same course as Min Rest and also don't have a clue what's going on.:mad: :confused:

I spoke to someone in recruitment a couple of weeks ago who said that a decision would be made by the end of January, but obviously not.

Until i'm told otherwise i'll still assume i'm on the July '03 course but I won't be surprised if (when?!?) i'm told it's been put back by 6-12 months!! :(

Question is whether I can stick it out in my current job til then!!

FB

Doesn't sound all that good for me then as I am meant to be starting on the Jan 04 course, but if that is going to be filled up with this years intake does that mean its going to be an even longer wait for me?

Is this a test to see how dedicated you are to being an ATCO, whether you can put your life on hold for 18 months or so till they deem you can start! Doesn't inspire confidence in your future employers does it!!!

I see this is another major achievement in the development of NATS training. Just a few years ago it used to take large amounts of time and effort by management to get recruits to the required level of disillusionment and cynicism so that they "gelled" with their more senior colleagues. Now we are ensuring that they arrive in the correct frame of mind. Well done everybody!!!

1. April 03 course is not cancelled. Sorry 250kts, but your source was a tad premature. :=
2. The entire course is being over-hauled which may require a reduced output from the college for a short period [one or two courses] to work through the changes from old to new system. the new course will be shorter, but will focus on training ATCOs for the skills they will actually use. No more Tower ticket for Area controllers. :rolleyes:
3. The large amount of trainees in the system at the moment are not due to high failure rate. The much publicised shortage of ATCOs also means a shortage of instructors both at the college, and at LACC, made worse by last-years shift from West Drayton. Any reduced intake into Area Training will be used to reduce the backlog, and thus improve the chances of subsequent trainees validating. Thus you are better off waiting pre-college, than hanging around forgetting what you have learned half-way through. ;)

Numpo 'fraid I agree, although the lack of timely decisions was not the fault of recruitment, but down to a Mr Cheese Holme. It would have suited everyone's purpose better if April had been cancelled to sort out the mess, but t'was not politically expedient.

Dances with Boffins

Not politically expedient to cancel the April course but would it be considered such to cancel the July one?!?

You also say that reduced output from the college may be required. Does this mean they're considering cancelling some courses after April? Or are they just going cut back on recruitment and reassign some people to later courses than originally intended (but continue starting courses every 3 months without any cancellations) to reduce class sizes?:confused:

FB

Fly Bhoy

Much as I'd love to put your worries to rest, I am unable to answer your [quite proper] question, because at the moment I, and I suspect, management right up to Board level, don't know.

What is known is that there is no way that Area training can shift from the old course to the new without either a]cancelling one AREA intake [which amounts to 80% of each course], or b] reducing the AREA intake over a whole year by about a third, as there are not enough instructors or simulators at the college to run full old and new courses side by side. However LACC is still screaming for more controllers as anyone reading this forum over the last year can attest, so reducing the college output by even one course will result in some very pointed questions being asked at board level.
Someone will have to bite the bullet and make a decision, but at the moment no-one is blinking[remember the three way gunfight in 'The Good, The Bad and The Ugly?].:D :* :}

The only ray of sunshine is that it should be sorted by the time you start training, which will improve your chances of making the grade at your final unit . Doesn't make your life at the moment any rosier, but hang tough. NATS really does need ATCOs, and they will continue to do so long after you are safely valid and gazing lovingly at some electric tadpoles. :cool:

Boffins.

We have clashed in the past.

But with this thread you have got it right on the nose.
What a sorry state we have got into.

I feel so sorry for all the students now.

Continue to give it your best. You are doing a great job.

All Wannabes, keep applying. It's a great job.

Regards to SH, NW, ST, JH, CS + others, most on Area.

Mr G.

Dances with Boffins

Cheers for clearing some things up. :ok:

Guess we'll just have to wait and see what the final decision is. It won't put me off, having to wait an extra 3-6 months, but will just be a bit annoying as i'd kind of got my hopes pinned on starting in July.

I suppose its going to affect someone in the end though so may as well be the July course as any other one!!:sad: At least that way we'll get to start our training on the new (improved?!?!?:confused: ) course!

Cheers again.

FB

D with B,
As flybhoy says,thanks for clearing up some of the uncertainty.
I too will not be put off by having to wait a bit longer,particularly if it will benefit us in the long run.
While I'm spouting off,can someone tell me at what point in the process you get to choose(if thats the case) between Area and Approach training?I gather there are some common elements in the training course.Or are NATS solely training for Area at the moment.
Once again,help much appreciated,and thank god for this website!

Sorry folks, me again.

777 NATS has a continuing need for both airports and area controllers, with the college producing both at a ratio of about 1:4.
The first 3 months of the new course is common to both, then you will be streamed, with Airports candidates doing the Aerodrome rating, and the Area trainees starting radar training. The big difference is that you will know then where your final unit posting will be, and so can prepare your life accordingly, whereas at present you spend your whole college career not knowing whether you are bound for Heathrow or Aberdeen. You will now spend all periods of 'on the job' training at your final unit, so by the time you arrive there, you know where the canteen and toilets are. ;)
The decision about who goes where though will be dependant primarily on company needs. So you basically will have a 1 in 4 chance of airports, if that is where you want to go, but you then stand as much chance of living in London as Scotland. Area mostly end up in Swanwick, but some go to Prestwick [about a fifth].
Best idea is just be prepared for a career in ATC, and leave the details until later. Nearly every ATCO in the world will swear that THEIR discipline is the one to go for, so whichever way you end up going, sit back and enjoy it. :cool:

I already know where the canteen and toilets are at Manchester, do you think this will help me get posted there? ;)

MR XxX

Boffins,

Thanks for info. I'm supposed to be starting in Oct. Just have to wait and see which way the coin falls.:confused:

If NATS are tossing a coin, I would grab it before it lands........

It'll be the first, last and only bonus you'll get!

;)

In an attempt to put the record straight, the following is a copy of an email sent today (12/02) to all staff at CATC (hereinafter known as DAT&S) setting out what is happening vis-a-vis recruitment, stopping courses and why. I have to say that it is something some of us have been arguing for for some time, and seems eminently sensible.

There has recently been speculation about our intentions regarding the next few intakes of trainees, and I thought it might be helpful to tell you what's going on. As many of you know, when we stopped shift work here after 11 September, we kept our commitments to those trainees to whom we had already made employment offers. This, coupled with a shortage of area instructors, which has restricted the size of ACS1 and ACS2, has given us a significant backlog of holding trainees - in fact, we now have the equivalent of almost one complete course holding. Given that fact, plus our plan to stop using trainees as ATSAs at Swanwick, and the need to introduce our new course structure starting in 2004, it makes absolute sense to
reduce the number of new trainees coming into the system.

Although the final decision has not yet been made, it is likely that we will drop the course scheduled to start at the beginning of July. It may be that we will also have to reduce intake numbers again later in the year, but we are still working on that, and how best to programme instructor training for the new ACS course. Because of the number of holders we have here, plus the
number of trainees replacing ATSAs at Swanwick, it will not mean a reduction in the number of people undergoing validation training or a slowing down of the delivery of new operational controllers.

Finally, you may be interested to know that due to a combination of the efforts of Recruitment Services, and an apparent change in the labour market, there are currently sufficient successful applicants to fill our needs for the next twelve months or so. This contrasts with the last few years, when we were having to work very hard to get enough people through the door at the start of each course.

Well, there you are then, from the horse's mouth. I shall probably now have to adopt a new nom de guerre, but then again, maybe not.

Sooner or later I shall see some of you here at CATC..oops, DAT&S!

Bern Oulli

Thanks for the heads up with this, helps clarify things that are in the system and waiting for a definate start date and how long we have to wait to start training.

What I take from this - correct me if I am wrong - is that the July 03 course will be closed to all new starters in order to process those already within the system. It would follow (if no more course reductions take place) that the entire course of new starters due to commence training in July 03 would move to Oct 03, Oct 03 moves to Jan 04 etc, would this make sense.

Once again thanks again.

Goidel.
To be honest I do not know the details of who is going to be on what course and who will hold for how long. I could ask a few discreet questions, if the info isn't super secret.

Email NATS!
 

I've emailed the following people about all this. No response yet, but maybe if we all hassle them together they'll sort something out:

Andy Hutchinson (Recruitment Manager): [email protected]

Rob Whitaker (CATC Business Manager)
[email protected]

I realise that's not the best CATC contact, but its the only public one I could find on the net.

The following people might also be good to email:
Chris Gibson-Smith - Chairman
Richard Everitt – Chief Executive Officer
Colin Chisholm – Chief Operating Officer

Let us know what happens!

Got a response! Good luck for the rest of you too!

cb9002

Dances

I note that new entrants will have an idea of where they're being posted at the end of it all.

I recall that this was the system in place in the late 70's & early 80's when your course number streamed you for Area or Airports;
evens & odds respectively.

So the wheel seems to have turned full circle again over a 20 year period.....how much wasted money and manpower has this 20-year 'experiment' cost I wonder?

TC

E-mailed Andy [email protected]equently passed onto Ruth Wallace from Recruitment.
She basically said nothing defininte has been decided yet regarding delayed intake.
Sit tight I guess and watch this space.......unless anyone else has info.

The most worrying statement is not continuing to use T and Ders as ATSAs. I don't think that LACC could continue as it is at the moment without them.

CB

Carbide -
Not a valid argument really. The T & D ATCOs at LACC number about 60 at any time. They need to be trained before they are any use to anyone. Whilst training as assistants, they are not of any real use until they are solo, and after a short period of useful employment, they start training again to do their REAL job. In the meantime they have forgotten a good percentage of what they learned at Hurn.
They would need to be replaced, sure, so that the work gets done, but it would only take half the number of ATSAs to fill the posts, as once trained, they stay doing the job.
Tada! Just saved the company about £750,000, increased the number of ATSA posts for the shrinking ATSA cadre, and improved trainees chances of validation. Even our management can't fail to see the plus side of this one. :=
Oh, and reduced the time taken between starting at the college, and earning ATCO 2 money for subsequent new-starter LACC ATCOs.:D :D :cool:

I assume there is still a requirement for controllers and the recruitment hasn't stopped altogether?

Oh yes indeedy! Just a slight pause to catch the collective breath.

S'right. We're just changing the nozzle shape on the Play-Doh machine, and then we'll be back pumpin' out ATCOs just as fast as Berni & Co can teach 'em.:cool:

Anyone Know why the signature thingy has stopped working? :confused:

Dances,

Like your reasoning, I wish it could be that simple. If there is a company that could get it wrong, then NATS would be my choice.

Currently there is about 6 months of useful ATSA time out of a T&D before their SVC. Once the waiting time for SVCs goes down in the 6 months of no College output there will be a shortfall of ATSAs. Also, and correct me if I am wrong, there is currently a recruitment embargo on all positions except TATCs.

I think we may see sector closures in the not too distant future because of lack of ATSAs. I really hope that NATS will sort things out.

CB

Maybe some new news?
 

Firstly thanks to the oh so lovely Min Rest (and she is!!), not only are you gorgeous but you gave me a nice heads up on this topic!

I spoke to one of the recruitment guys and the latest is as follows....

the April course has now moved forward by one week to the last week in March. the powers that be are then looking to see how things fit and will go from there.

the official line is that the JULY'03 course is not yet cancelled but numbers may be reduced.

i also heard that recruitment will cease for a couple of months probably when the move from London to the south occurs!

what happens will then be decided late March early April.

i myself am supposed to be on the JUL'03 course but then i guess we will have to wait and see about that.

hope some of its useful.

Crewman

Yeah, and if you get to start in July and I don't you're gonna have to cook for yourself mate!!!

:D :D :D

The apparently 'lovely' MR XxX

Crewman

If we're supposed to be on the Jul 03 course and the lovely MR gets put back, then I think we should ask to be put back as well just to make sure she can cook for both of us!!!!:O :p

FB

Very off topic, but did you get my email MR? I'm not sure I sent it to the right address.

BTW I spoke to James today- their course starts in Maastricht at the beginning of May as I thought. They've got their exams in a month, and next week is the infamous 'exercise 16' week.

When they get to Maastricht, that's about a month after our course finishes in the sim, so I may be around... on the other hand, I may not!!!!:rolleyes:

Yes hun I did get your e-mail, you know how crap I am at replying!

Will probably try to make it over April time it that's ok, will be sad to miss James tho! Tell him Bobby Big Letter says Hi!

Love to MST.

BTW can I just clarify that no one posting these messages has EVER tasted my cooking. I may be awful.

FB had the oddest dream with you and crewman in it - how's the leg doing, cause it was in plaster in my dream!

crewman DO NOT type a word................

MR XxX :p

That is sooo not fair!!!
 

you cant post a message telling all the peeps that read this about the dream and not expect me to reply!!!!!

but as i am a gentleman i will honour your request for silence!!

we are way off the mark now about the topic but then it doesn't really matter for the moment does it!

right i'm off, just to let you know "the lovely" min rest, the cooking is a bonus!!!!!! ;)

sweet dreams baby ;)

crewman xxx

crewman you are sooooooooo thoughtful, sparing my blushes :O

Back on topic, has anyone heard anything else, or recieved any replies back from e-mails to Andy Hutchinson? A fully fledged ATCO friend of mine has been down at the college this week, but hasn't heard anything said of it.

Oh, the waiting is killing me.........

MR XxX