"Land After" UK / ... now SVO
 

It has been quite some time since I last operated to LHR. I do remember studying "Land after.." procedure.

Recently a notam was issued for SVO:I tried, without success, to find UK regulatory reference to the procedure I recall. Can you help?

Thankfuly,
FD.

In the UK CAP493:Manual of Air Traffic Services, Section 2, Chapter 1: Aerodrome Control, paragraph 1.94 (Page 21 of Section 2). Details the requirements for a Land after in the UK. Still in regular use at LHR.

Is the "After the landing....." procedure still in use?

Many thanks Geffen. Exactly what I have been looking for.

Also, now I see CAP413 has the phraseologies, together with MATS definition verbatim (4.56).

Yours,
FD.

For Aircrew:

UK 'Land After' Procedure: UK IAIP GEN 3.3-6 Para 3.8.3

UK Special Landing Procedures ('After the Landing etc/Departing etc) : UK IAIP GEN 3.3-6 Para 3.8.4

(HD: I note that it is now only published for London Gatwick and London Stansted (ie. single-runway operation) Airports. It would appear that it has been withdrawn at those airports with parallels and dedicated mode usage (eg. London Heathrow and Manchester)

After the landing/departing was withdrawn from use at LHR some years ago. I can't recall the date but my eminent colleauge Gonzo probably can.

They always replied 'Roger, Land After' anyway...

TDM

3.8.4 is very interesting. Also, the AIP referece is the only relevant one for foreign aircrew.

Any ideas, why the content of 3.8.4 in not available from the AD section? This is where we normally look at for AD-specific rules.

Thanks yet again,
FD.

...which is why I posted it... ;)

None. I personally think that it is in the wrong section and that it should be AD-specific. In fact in the case of Heathrow I think it used to be prior to GEN 3.

Agreed. :ok:

'Land After' (And 'After the departing xxx cleared to land') both still in regular use at Stansted and Gatwick

"After the landing/departing xxx, cleared to land" was withdrawn from Heathrow in early 2008.

That's funny. I had a requested and received land after on 9L at Heathrow last thurs....

LHRpony... "Land afters...." are still good but "After the landing..." is now taboo at Heathrow. I don't know why.

LHRPony, the two procedures are distinctly different. The 'Land After' procedure is UK-wide, whereas the 'Special Landing Procedures' are location-specific (currently only at high-intensity SRO airports, Gatwick and Stansted). In the former the pilot is responsible for separation, whereas in the latter the ATCO remains responsible for separation, and the procedure is subject to numerous conditions.

LHRPony unwittingly demonstrates why having two types of conditional landing instructions with similar phraseology may not be a good idea.

One ("After the Landing") being a clearance where ATC retain separation responsibility and the other ("Land After") an instruction to the pilot to effectively land at his/her discrection

They were often confused, give one and the other was read-back to you. If the aircraft is on a short final do you have time to correct it? Does the flight crew understand the difference? If not correction is made, do you actually have the criteria to enable the one that was read-back to safely exist?

ad nauseam.

But it seems to work elsewhere?

Ha ha lhr pony has demonstrated that he frequently gets the wrong end of the stick and is an eejit.

Never seen it at Stansted. They do plenty of late landing clearances, but no land afters.

I don't think you have. As Gonzo says there is misunderstanding as to what the procedure means and who has responsibility. I occasionally get a readback of cleared to land when using land after with non-UK crews, they have clearly mis-understood the instruction but on short final is not perhaps appropriate timing to discuss this. And by the time you had corrected them the conditions probably exisit for a landing clearance, although it would perhaps be too late at this point to do much other than land.

I don't think that crews are "at fault" for not knowing what the procedure means, nor do I get annoyed when an aircrew correctly go-around following a land-after if they are not comfortable with the separation that they are now responsible for.

Concur with GT3. LHRPony I apologise, I didn't intend to cast aspersions! I don't blame crews for not understanding the subtleties between the two similar instructions.

One could surmise that withdrawing one of the two was a step towards eliminating that potential confusion.

One might also perhaps consider that we retained the UK-specific procedure rather than the ICAO compliant procedure, so perhaps the confusion potential is still there, as evidenced by GT3's remarks.

I think 'Land After' is a cop-out at precision IFR ATM airports such as Heathrow. It's lacklustre and brought about by the high pressure on runway utilisation. Because of the confusion highlighted above I think that 'Land After' should be consigned to the nats Room 101 bin of doubtful, non-robust procedures (such as 2.5 nm spacing). If the airport cannot operate using standard robust procedures then take some of the runway utilisation pressure off in the interest of the flight safety of the fare-paying passenger. It took a whole raft of go-around incidents at Heathrow before robust (non-intervention) go-around procedures were introduced. Every approach is to a potential go-around, so there should never have been any need for reactive intervention. I think 'Land After' at major international airports such as Heathrow shoddy buck-passing. If there is insufficient spare capacity for a robust landing clearance, then airport operators should create some by relieving the pressure.

'Land after' enables a safe clearance to be issued and prevent an otherwise unnecessary missed approach. Would a clear landing clearance with associated distances as per Doc 4444 be more appropriate, possibly, however the 'Land after' procedure works well and helps the ATCO to provide a safe service. The important aspect being that the 'Land after' clearance be issued in good time and as GT3 says, not be upset by the potential for a missed approach if that is what the crew desire.

2.5nm spacing is a robust tool to enable consistent throughput to the landing runway in stronger winds.

'Land after' ISNT a clearance.

Which is precisely the point if it. It is more akin to Land At Your Discretion

Agree 100% with Talkdownman. And, as already noted, Land After is not a clearance - it's passing the buck to the crews which should not happen at a major airfield.

Okay, poor choice of words using 'clearance', sorry.

It does not change the fact that the 'Land after' is a useful procedure to enable a pilot to safely land when otherwise a missed approach would be the only option. The Part 1 is quite clear that:
'the runway is long enough to allow safe separation between the two aircraft and there is no evidence to indicate that braking may be adversely affected'.

The instruction (I appreciate that some won't like the choice of 'instruction' either) would not be issued if the mandated condition's were not present.

Thanks guys,
I have to admit (and it's abundantly obvious), I wasn't aware of the "after the landing." It is interesting reading, and probably one of the most useful things I have learned from Pprune.
Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Kind regards
LHRPony

Wish they'd allow an equivalent of 'land after' at AFIS airfields rather than just those with ATC, it would mean a lot less unnecessary go arounds!

Well, at my airport any 'land-after' instruction is a crime, but to be honest - in a case where the *only* limitiation to issue a legal landing clearance is a preceding landing aircraft that is just about to vacate the runway, it should be fine, in my opinion, to issue a 'land after' landing clearance, leaving that small part of responsibility to the crew. I think that in CAVOK conditions they are able to judge the situation better than the ATC...

Depends where the ATC is...

Is this "land after' instruction based on an ATC runway separation standard. Eg one landed and 2400m from the threshold will vacated without backtracking?

No. It can only be given by ATC where the controller is positive the following aircraft can see the first one and the pilot can assess that it is sufficiently far ahead for him to land ie it must be daylight and VMC, there is no requirement for a specific minimum distance between landers, however obviously the first aircraft must not be permitted to backtrack.

I was wrong earlier - heard a tower controller at Essex International issue a conditional landing clearance this morning ("after the departing xxx cleared to land"). The departure was rolling at that point but still fairly slow.