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"Land After" UK / ... now SVO

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"Land After" UK / ... now SVO

Old 12th Sep 2014, 19:22
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"Land After" UK / ... now SVO

It has been quite some time since I last operated to LHR. I do remember studying "Land after.." procedure.

Recently a notam was issued for SVO:
(A3521/14 NOTAMR A3444/2014
Q) UUWV/QFAXX/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5558N03725E005
A) UUEE
B) 1409091000 C) PERM
E) SHEREMETYEVO-TOWER, CONTROLLER SHALL ISSUE CONDITIONAL LANDING CLEARANCE ,,LAND AFTER..., WHEN THE PROCEDURE OF THE REDUCED RUNWAY SEPARATION MINIMA IS APPLIED. RESPONSIBILITY FOR ENSURING THE SAFE DISTANCE TO THE PRECEDING LANDING ACFT IS PLACED ON PILOT-IN-COMMAND OF THE SUCCEEDING ACFT. REF AIP AD 2.1 UUEE-15,16.)
I tried, without success, to find UK regulatory reference to the procedure I recall. Can you help?

Thankfuly,
FD.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 12th Sep 2014 at 20:41.
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 19:53
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In the UK CAP493:Manual of Air Traffic Services, Section 2, Chapter 1: Aerodrome Control, paragraph 1.94 (Page 21 of Section 2). Details the requirements for a Land after in the UK. Still in regular use at LHR.
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 20:05
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Is the "After the landing....." procedure still in use?
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 20:30
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Many thanks Geffen. Exactly what I have been looking for.

Also, now I see CAP413 has the phraseologies, together with MATS definition verbatim (4.56).

Yours,
FD.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 12th Sep 2014 at 20:41.
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 20:52
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For Aircrew:

UK 'Land After' Procedure: UK IAIP GEN 3.3-6 Para 3.8.3

UK Special Landing Procedures ('After the Landing etc/Departing etc) : UK IAIP GEN 3.3-6 Para 3.8.4

(HD: I note that it is now only published for London Gatwick and London Stansted (ie. single-runway operation) Airports. It would appear that it has been withdrawn at those airports with parallels and dedicated mode usage (eg. London Heathrow and Manchester)
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 21:36
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After the landing/departing was withdrawn from use at LHR some years ago. I can't recall the date but my eminent colleauge Gonzo probably can.
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 21:45
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They always replied 'Roger, Land After' anyway...
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 22:00
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TDM

3.8.4 is very interesting. Also, the AIP referece is the only relevant one for foreign aircrew.

Any ideas, why the content of 3.8.4 in not available from the AD section? This is where we normally look at for AD-specific rules.

Thanks yet again,
FD.
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 22:18
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent
the AIP referece is the only relevant one for foreign aircrew
...which is why I posted it...

Originally Posted by FlightDetent
Any ideas, why the content of 3.8.4 in not available from the AD section? This is where we normally look at for AD-specific rules.
None. I personally think that it is in the wrong section and that it should be AD-specific. In fact in the case of Heathrow I think it used to be prior to GEN 3.
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 22:28
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Agreed.
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Old 12th Sep 2014, 22:41
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'Land After' (And 'After the departing xxx cleared to land') both still in regular use at Stansted and Gatwick
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Old 13th Sep 2014, 07:32
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"After the landing/departing xxx, cleared to land" was withdrawn from Heathrow in early 2008.
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Old 13th Sep 2014, 11:33
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That's funny. I had a requested and received land after on 9L at Heathrow last thurs....
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Old 13th Sep 2014, 12:01
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LHRpony... "Land afters...." are still good but "After the landing..." is now taboo at Heathrow. I don't know why.
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Old 13th Sep 2014, 12:12
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LHRPony, the two procedures are distinctly different. The 'Land After' procedure is UK-wide, whereas the 'Special Landing Procedures' are location-specific (currently only at high-intensity SRO airports, Gatwick and Stansted). In the former the pilot is responsible for separation, whereas in the latter the ATCO remains responsible for separation, and the procedure is subject to numerous conditions.
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Old 13th Sep 2014, 12:16
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LHRPony unwittingly demonstrates why having two types of conditional landing instructions with similar phraseology may not be a good idea.

One ("After the Landing") being a clearance where ATC retain separation responsibility and the other ("Land After") an instruction to the pilot to effectively land at his/her discrection

They were often confused, give one and the other was read-back to you. If the aircraft is on a short final do you have time to correct it? Does the flight crew understand the difference? If not correction is made, do you actually have the criteria to enable the one that was read-back to safely exist?

ad nauseam.
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Old 13th Sep 2014, 13:00
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But it seems to work elsewhere?
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Old 13th Sep 2014, 13:08
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Ha ha lhr pony has demonstrated that he frequently gets the wrong end of the stick and is an eejit.
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Old 13th Sep 2014, 13:43
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Never seen it at Stansted. They do plenty of late landing clearances, but no land afters.
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Old 13th Sep 2014, 14:54
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Ha ha lhr pony has demonstrated that he frequently gets the wrong end of the stick and is an eejit.
I don't think you have. As Gonzo says there is misunderstanding as to what the procedure means and who has responsibility. I occasionally get a readback of cleared to land when using land after with non-UK crews, they have clearly mis-understood the instruction but on short final is not perhaps appropriate timing to discuss this. And by the time you had corrected them the conditions probably exisit for a landing clearance, although it would perhaps be too late at this point to do much other than land.

I don't think that crews are "at fault" for not knowing what the procedure means, nor do I get annoyed when an aircrew correctly go-around following a land-after if they are not comfortable with the separation that they are now responsible for.
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