PPRuNe Forums - Combined radar and tower

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Mahogany fixed wing pilot here.

I think your going to run into problems because of TCAS.

Its a pain in the arse because we have to react to it if it gives a resolution. And a lot of company's will require a report as well even if its a traffic trigger.

They still won't be wanting you to get close because they don't want a Go-around on there hands or for that matter airlines safety officers breathing down their necks asking about all the traffic triggers.

Mate's who are ATCO's and also GA instructor's who are the most GA VFR eccentric controllers that you can meet have got fed up of the reports that TCAS generates.

And to be honest most don't actually understand what triggers it and the distances involved depending on the speed of the two aircraft and which way they are pointing. ie if you go head to head with an aircraft on approach it will trigger where as if your tail to nose it won't. I certainly don't understand it. Some one would have to do a study with rates of climb and decent and aircraft speeds to produce a profile round the area that you could work in. It might very well be that you still can't operate into those sites without causing go-arounds if they are banging them in every minute and a half.

Aren't Southampton about to introduce this with fixed times?? ie first thing in the morning and after 7pm in the evening?

Quote:

Originally Posted by "GT3

Class D "might" assist in this

Class D will completely remove the need for you to separate the traffic assuming that the Helis's are VFR.

Maybe its enhanced class D they are getting ie they are turning it into class G and using ATCSOCAS or what ever that pish is called that we are inflicted with.

This was an interesting discussion before it got derailed into yet another Heathrow tangent. How about creating a new thread to discuss Heathrow's impending airspace reclassification, if that's what people want?

For what it´s worth, Norway have used radar in combined twr/app settings in low traffic situations for more than 20 years. However there was poor regulation in the beginning, and in the early 00s the union/guild had to force the regulator and ANSP to introduce some limiting regulations. (Things had gotten out of hand, controllers forced to vector sequences of 4-5 arriving aircraft while doing the twr bit as well, not good at all)

The current rules, national ammendment/addition to 4444: (I have tried to "clean" a google translated version)

Quote:

Norwegian special provisions regarding the use of ATS monitoring system in the combined tower and approach control service :

1 When an ATS surveillance system used for the performance of the combined tower and approach control service in accordance with the following provisions , shall be such that the requirement for visual monitoring of traffic on and near the airport are met in accordance with paragraph 7.1.1.2 .

Availability and use of monitoring information by combined tower and approach control service shall not cause visual monitoring of traffic on and near the airport to be reduced.
When applying the combined tower and approach control service is the demands of the tower control service that will limit the scope and content of the service provided . Tower Control Service based mainly on visual monitoring of traffic on the maneuvering area and near the airport. Aircraft should only be vectored from the combined tower and approach control positions in exceptional cases.

2 Air traffic controllers performing combined tower and approach control service may use ATS surveillance system the following tasks :

a) flight path monitoring of aircraft within the air traffic controller 's area of responsibility ,

b ) the establishment of separation between aircraft within ATCO responsibility,

c ) provide navigation assistance to VFR flights ,

d ) monitoring of ground traffic as specified in section 8.10.2 and

e ) vectoring of aircraft , with the following restrictions;
i) vectoring shall not be used for more than one aircraft at a time ,
ii) vectoring may not be used while the second aircraft located in
departure phase , landing stage or in the landing pattern ,
iii ) vectoring should not be used if you also have traffic on the maneuvering area , except for cases mentioned in the fifth paragraph , vectoring shall not be used when other conditions, as defined locally, require special attention.

With the " departure phase " means the period from the aircraft commencing departure until the aircraft is in the air and passed the end of the runway . The "landing phase " means the period from the aircraft is closer than 4 NM from the threshold of runway to be used for landing until the aircraft has landed.

One can establish local procedures that allow vectoring simultaneously with limited traffic on defined parts of the maneuvering area and the necessary and limited traffic with vehicles that perform specific ground services , such as friction measurements, measurements of runway visual range and trajectory inspections.

Each ATS shall consider § 9 second paragraph a to d, according to the principles of the first paragraph and determine the maximum number of simultaneous aircraft movements permitted within the unit's area of responsibility . Furthermore, the ATC unit must assess and determine further restrictions of the second paragraph a through e , with respect to factors that controller is alone on duty , snow clearing on the maneuveringarea , reduced visibility , reduced runway friction , difficult wind conditions, operations outside daylight period or other conditions that require special attention.

3 Special VFR flights shall not be vectored unless special circumstances such as emergencies warrant.
4 When an ATS surveillance equipment used to provide navigation assistance to VFR flights special precautions must be taken so that the aircraft does not inadvertently enter IFR conditions.

zonoma

Your reference to Southampton's introduction after 1900 HR is very interesting bearing in mind the minimal controlled airspace to the north of the airport and the complex vectoring that this requires plus the restricted movement area and the GMC problems that this causes. Would love to see the APSA proving that joint service provision is tolerably safe.

Maybe joint service after 2100 when the scheduled departures have left?

M609 - those rules are very interesting and look sensible.

However, the provisions required for vectoring in E) i), ii) and iii) will definitely not be possible at a unit I know of which is trialling this in the UK - 1 aircraft at a time just isn't how the traffic runs through the night.

Indeed, and that is what we found in Norway as well, so most airports now have decent SID/STARs to reduce the dependence on vectors.

Is has been a few years since I worked at one of the airports that does this, but in practice effeciency suffers because you have to use more speed control than perhaps needed to give yourself enough extra space when not using vectors to sequence arrivals while doing the TWR bit as well.

Sorry for dragging up an old thread, but this seems like the right place to ask a couple of questions...

1. How are UK units operating Radar in Tower getting on?

2. What callsign do they use when operating RiT?

Cheers,

LXGB

I believe Belfast City has introduced this procedure now as well, or imminently at least. Controllers getting 4 hour exemptions and it is to be used during normal operational hours dealing with normal daily traffic. Assistants are going if not already gone and the controllers will also be expected to carry out assistant duties. Looks like NATS Solutions have taken the lead by a country mile in the race to the bottom! :hmm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by escaped.atco (Post 10376522)

Thanks for that, doesn't sound like it's been well received from your perspective. I thought the idea was to enhance safety over Procedural Service, when it's quiet; rather than to cut staff.

Any ATCOs out there that are currently using RiT?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike current (Post 10379803)

1. Very well. I don't hear fellow ATCOs complaining too much about it. In my opinion it works well. Other colleagues believe there should be more staff and an assistant on duty at night, but I think that's more a reflection on staffing rather than RitT itself.

2. Callsign Radar when a/c calls on Radar frequency, Tower when they call on TWR frequency. The frequencies are cross coupled, so everyone can hear everyone else. An ATIS message explains that the positions are combined.

Thanks MC.