Combined radar and tower
 

Talking to a guy the other day who said this system is being trialled in Scotland? How does it work and what are the benefits??

Are you sure it wasn't approach and tower? Because I've never heard of tower and radar, in fact it's a complete no go.

Surely if it's Approach and Tower it wouldn't be being trialled as it is already in use in many places!

It is tower and radar, I think Belfast has been doing it at night for a while now.

No Sylo it is RIT Radar in the tower. Now perfectly legal (subject to certain conditions being met).

It is in use at Belfast Aldergrove.

Benefits? Take a mad stab.....clue the answer includes costs and staffing.

Many towers have had what is now called an 'Aerodrome Traffic Monitor' (ATM), formerly 'Distance From Touchdown Indicator' (DFTI) for over 40 years. Uses are strictly limited to monitoring spacing on final approach and position of visual circuit traffic, however controllers with ADI and APS ratings are not permitted to vector traffic using it, but they may pass generic traffic information derived from it, so it's not a new system being trialled.

Chevron....wrong. Do you ever read posts before leaping in?


The system now allows for vectoring on the ATM which is an exact repeater of the "main" radar.

Like you I am no longer valid BUT I will get hold of the rules and post the essentials when I speak to my old watch.....couple of days max.

It was just being introduced as I left...I naturally paid no attention to it :p

Trials ongoing at EGAA and imminent or just starting at EGPF.

I am surprised it has taken so long for it to be introduced for the night traffic hours.

Shows you I'm a bit out of touch.
So if the ATM has to be an exact repeater of the main radar, presumably at places like Luton and Farnborough where the ATM has south at the top it can't be done.

No reason why a second north-up screen can't be installed or, given the light traffic levels I'm assuming are necessary for this to be permissible, switch the picture on the ATM to north-up for the duration of approach-radar ops.

Watch this space, this is about to happen across the board (where the CAA will approve it) because it can reduce staffing costs long term. Management will love it. Couple it with electronic strips and then the night ATSA disappears too...........not good. And another thing!!!!!! ATCO's doing night MET obs..........not good.....again!

ATM's which are south facing are being turned so they face north!!!!

Only one reason to do radar from the tower, cost saving!!! You can cut your night manning by 50%.

WIP . Night ATSA is a distant memory at EGAA .ATCO has been doing met for a couple of years now.

Part of the reality of having to fight to retain contracts in NSL.

Just ANOTHER example of "sacrosanct" procedures or requirements which have been "No Go Areas" for decades suddenly becoming approved because of expediency - primarily cost cutting.
It makes me weep. All those years not doing it & now, suddenly, its all OK; & we could have been doing it all the time .
Please explain why; & what has now changed to enable it to be done safely.

Tried to look at ANO Schedule !0 last night, but it has been deleted and replaced by CAP744. Lots of information, but it does say……

"The Aerodrome Radar Control endorsement shall not permit the aerodrome controller to use the surveillance radar equipment in any way that will detract from the primary task of providing an aerodrome control service by visual observation of aerodrome traffic".

Sorry Guv', I didn't see the vehicle stray on to the runway/Aerodrome Ground Incident*, I was too busy vectoring a few inbounds.

*delete as applicable

@lookingforajob,

I don't know which unit you are/were based at but where I work you don't get half an hr with no traffic to put your feet up and make a brew........I wish! As a dual valid controller working nights at a busy airfield, tower duties involve more than just aircraft calls. Night duties involve lots of vehicle activity due to constant work in progress and non standard complex procedures on a regular basis. Having controlled at a couple of units I can say that it might work at some units, but not everywhere. It simple isn't safe in my opinion.
Once the staffing is cut it won't be re-introduced thats for sure.
Put bad weather and an emergency into the frame and trust me, when your work loads has doubled you would prefer to have an ATSA and an extra ATCO on duty to help!

Zooker
Quite so. Whatever conditions are placed on the operation, how do you guard against precisely what you describe?

2 s

Perhaps NATS NSL thinks it can get it past the union against the background of a lost contract, and the hard negotiation they will face as a result when the other contracts come up for renewal.

LookingForAJob

Can you suggest what has now changed (other than the need to cut costs ie NOT ATC safety related) that overcomes what, for 50 years or so, was ABSOLUTELY forbidden ?
&, if this practice is now legal, WHY it is now so; &, why could we not have done it before ?
Either we were doing something (or not doing it) for so many years for absolutely NO reason; or, we are now doing it despite very good reasons (which haven't changed) for not having done it in the past. Which is correct ?
It seems to me that you have a touching faith in the professionalism & probity of the Regulators/Administrators. I hope that I am not doing you a misservice !
What is the answer ?

Its just my opinion that its not a good idea.
There are so many variables that could make it safe or not.
Unfortunately modern NATS is different to days when one minute you've got your feet up, bored and wondering who's going to make a brew! And then on the other hand saying to the boss " you better call up the troops, we will need them tonight. I've got 1 inbound due in half an hour".
There won't be any extra staff. If a safety case is proven by the regulator and it gets implemented into the contract with the airport authority the staff won't be there.
All this will do is add to the stress of frontline ATCO's, decrease ATSA numbers (further) and possibly decrease the service to the airliners, but alas, we won't be bored or suffer any tedious night duties!