CHIRP 108 - too much rubbish on ATIS
 

Reading the latest CHIRP, one article in particular struck a massive chord. In fact, a Tony Iommi-sized chord!
While probably done with the best of intentions, there are few things more frustrating on a busy short-haul flight than having to listen to 30 or more seconds of crap on the ATIS before getting to what we, as aircrew, want - the WEATHER! The article decribes the problem perfectly, so I would just add my voice to that of the contributor. Please, please - nothing but weather on the ATIS. Possibly approach navaid outages but only if it's not NOTAMed as we will already know about it in that case. In our neck of the woods Inverness and Edinburgh are the worst offenders but by no means the only ones.
N.B. This is not meant to wind anyone up, but PLEEEEASE........it doesn't help us at all!

So what would you not want on the ATIS?

Planned runway changes? Closures of taxiways? Closures or opening of frequencies (delivery for example)? Bird information? Information on WIP?

Anything else that is often on that you would want removed?

As I haven't read the last CHIRP just interested in what you think should be excluded from the ATIS that is now there.

Chirp 108 isn't available online yet so I too haven't read it but MATS 1 would (or used to say...

Gotta love ACARS, even the spaniards learned how to put up a datalink ATIS by now. No more listening to stuff, simply press a button and get the info without one of those two up front zoning out to copy some information.

Crazy basically everything which is already NOTAM'd. needs skipped.

Some ATIS have

1. grass cutting in progress
2. fire service training in progress

etc.

And also part of a TAF attached as well.

The only info on WIP should be if any exits are blocked for the live runway.
The rest of it can be worked out on the ground. By the time we have flown the approach after getting the wx it will be forgotten about anyway. If a runway exit is blocked I put a note on our performance card and brief for the exit we are going to use.

To be honest most won't even listen to the extra stuff once they have the wx copied anyway as soon as they get the QNH it gets turned off.

As for frequency's being open we don't need to know. If ground is open that's where tower is going to send us. If Delivery is open that's where we go first anyway 99% of the time its bandboxed to who ever is doing it anyway. If its not you give two calls then try ground and if still no reply go to tower so no great shakes.

The one thing which some do put in but most don't which is handy is "controller under training" I know it shouldn't make a difference but it means most crews will give them a bit of rope and not get pissy if something strange gets said.

Most of the ATIS extra info is just pure bum covering and adds nothing to the safety of the flight.

Quite what we are meant to do differently when "grass cutting in progress" I don't know. And commercial crews /IR pilots which haven't seen a load of black smoke coming up next to a rusty heap with blues and twos around it shouldn't be flying.

LHR ATIS sometimes includes a phrase similar to: "Pilots are reminded that the read back of all clearances is mandatory!"

The only reason I can think of is that some dumb pilot didn't. So why not just remind the individual rather than telling everyone the rules? Everyone has done the Air Law exam.....

By the time it's gone in the ATIS he'll have flown away elsewhere or landed. :hmm:

Although to be fair LHR does have a lot of yanks flying into it who's readbacks are well... yankish.

Still reckon most will have forgotten it that don't know it anyway or have not even listened to it if its after the QNH.

I wonder how many actually listen to it anyway and just get there wx off the box of tricks.

MJ, I suppose one must cater for those whose first language isn't English, but the phrase isn't always included and it isn't included on the other international airport ATIS broadcasts.

The "miscreant of the day" won't be listening...he's gone!

See I don't think it is the second language speakers.

They tend to read back way way to much. And are only happy when they read back word for word everything including the wx.

In fact it takes quite a bit of work to batter them into only reading back the required items and using roger and wilco for the other stuff.

And I think Man had one about reading back hold short instructions.

Thank God I will never set foot in an airliner again! If only I had a quid for every time I'd said to a pilot: "Well, it's on the ATIS"... then there's the chaps who come on with "information Charlie" when it's "Mike"..... and "Oh, we thought it was 27L" when it really was 09L but they'd got the ATIS over North Africa and everything had changed.

Seriously, it's not the sharp-end ATCOs who are to blame nor those who record the ATIS. It's what is written down in the rules so they have to obey them. If there is an incident and it revealed that the ATCO did not ensure that the crew had the correct ATIS then he gets it in the neck.

Have any of you guys endured life without an ATIS? At previous airfields I have worked at and at Heathrow when I first started we had to read the weather and other information to every inbound! We'd wait if 3-4 were expected together, then read it.... and as sure as God made little green apples #5 would appear and we had to do it again.

we don't think it is the ATCO's.

We know its some office blunty who dictates what's on it. Who then add things thinking its a good thing but don't actually realise that.

a) it will be forgotten
b) the crews really don't care about the extras.

Most crews should get the ATIS just after the change over. If you put a special through after that more than likely they won't.

And the ATIS code thing is another thing special to the UK in Europe some days I am the only one that I hear giving it on frequency into a National Capital multi runway airport. The only others who regularly give it is speedbird.

And yes I have worked none ATIS. But in general if the cloud base is above 1000ft agl, the wind is under 15knts, your not into RVR's, your using the into wind runway all the pilots care about is the QNH for single runway airports and Runway in use and QNH if into a multiple runway airport.

You could give it "information Alpha, its lovely, QNH 1003" for all the use we make of the ATIS broadcast.

To be honest the military colour code system is a cracking way of dealing with it.

It is almost ALWAYS the sharp end atcos who are responsible for what is broadcast, or the TWR/APP sup. most of them covering their backs, if in doubt stick it on the ATIS, then at watch handover forget to have redundant info. removed.:ugh:

Amazing how things change. As both sharp-end ATCO and occasionally Supervisor (TWR and APC) I never once asked for anything to be put on the ATIS!

For example:

"Gatwick delivery, frequency 121 decimal 950 is closed. Departing aircraft are to make first contact on ground frequency 121 decimal 8" (or something similar)

But we don't care what the closed delivery frequency is!! It's hardly rocket science what the ground frequency is either... Worse still it prints all this out as well wasting my time reading through the nonsense while trying to find the real piece of information.

"Delivery frequency 121.8" would be better. Just coupling them so 121.95 patches through to GMC when GMP is closed, as they do almost everywhere else that's civilised, and taking all that out completely would be even better.

the QNH? :p:ok:

And then you report "information delta received" but it's become "echo" and ATC can't tell you what's changed so what's the point of reporting ATIS letter on first contact?

Why is it incumbent on ATC to listen and check what ATIS pilots have when it would be easier for ATC to tell pilots what the latest letter is?


Also, why tell an approach unit, physically situated in the same room as your previous sector, what the QNH is when ATC have to give pilot QNH on first descent to an altitude?


Surely that's too any QNHs? There's already too much to remember on first contact, it's a waste of RT time.

/rant over/

CHIRP 108 - too much rubbish on ATIS
 

Crazy Voyager, everything but the weather should be removed. Airfield navaid outages are useful but ONLY if they are not NOTAMed. Nothing else at all.
All the rest of it is just wasted time and often at a busy phase of flight if the ATIS is short range.

Hmmm.. a few pilots on here need Valium!

I'm in no position to change any of it (fortunately or not I don't know), just interested to see what people had to say on the subject.

Or maybe a week off after doing 6 days of 11 hours duty after one day off and 5 days starting at 4am of 9 hours duty before that. Instead of two days off and then the same again. Or one day off if they have already gone to EU FTLS. Flying 4-6 sectors a day.

I know it might sound moany and windging but surely ATIS should be for what the pilot actually needs not what someone wants us to have so it covers thier backside.

The QNH thing personally doesn`t bother me but it would make an interesting experiment to see how many changes and by how much between frequency before pilots started quering it. Sometimes it gets given a read back so often it just goes in your ear and out your mouth especially when you have 1013 set. Until we are cleared down to an alt it doesn`t really have any real relevence to our operation in controlled airspace.

Are you referring to advising the approach controller that you have the QNH on initial contact "Fastway 123 descending FL 80, B727 with A QNH 1021" ? That's no longer a requirement, just type (uk only please say the Europeans!) and atis.

Speaking of continental atises :}

babotika, are you sure that it's not an ICAO requirement?

CHIRP 108 - too much rubbish on ATIS
 

Del Prado, don't know if it ever was. There's no point as the controller will pass QNH when you are cleared to an altitude.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%204...21.1%20TSO.pdf

here is the new CAP413 including ICAO differences.


According to Chapter 6 for approach you just need to give Call sign, passing and clear level as per normal or just level and the information no QNH. In the UK

And QNH isn't passed by the controller until cleared to an Alt. So that looks like that one is taken care of in theory.

And to note most of the examples completely miss out ATSOCAS services :D we can only live in hope that its a precursor for it being scraped.

Bugga just remembered ATCO's don't work to CAP413 do they?

They work to MATZ part 1.

So its revert to normal ops of wait until someone else books in and if it works for them copy them or make it up as you go along and when something works stick to it. As its more than likely CAP413 doesn't match MATZ part 1

MATZ PT.1, is that a new type of airspace? :E

Sorry spell checker Mats Prt 1.

DB6...........if your only interested in getting an early update off the weather whilst on the way to Inverness/ Edinburgh or anywhere else for that matter please just give me a call on Scottish Info 119.875 and you will be given it with a smile :cool:

From latest CAP413

Automatic Terminal Information Service (ATIS) UK
4.184 To alleviate RTF loading at some busy airports, Automatic Terminal Information Service (ATIS) messages are broadcast to pass routine arrival/departure information on a discrete RTF frequency or on an appropriate VOR. Pilots inbound to these airports are normally required, on first contact with the aerodrome ATSU, to acknowledge receipt of current information by quoting the code letter of the broadcast. Pilots
of outbound aircraft are not normally required to acknowledge receipt of departure ATIS except when requested on the actual ATIS broadcast. If, however, pilots report receipt of a departure ATIS broadcast the QNH should be included, thereby allowing ATC to check that the quoted QNH is up-to-the-minute.
4.185 Aerodromes possessing ATIS, the hours of ATIS operation and the frequency employed are published in the UK AIP.
4.186 ATIS broadcasts (which should be no more than thirty seconds duration) will include all or part of the elements of the information shown in the Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1, Section 3, Chapter 1, in the order listed

fis that's not the problem especially in INV.

The INV atis is off the VOR and depending on your direction of attack and level you can't actually get it until well inside its published DOC.

In this EASA world the paper work is king. You can blow a tyre out on the runway through no fault of the pilot and if the subsequent investigation finds out you haven't got all the wx boxes filled out that match what the ATIS is providing you will get your backside in a sling.

So sometimes you be at 30 miles doing 230 knts and still not got the atis out the way and recorded. If you are lucky you will just catch it as they start the met part and then you can dump it when you get the QNH and Code. If you catch it as they start grass cutting in progress, WIP at delta, WIP in approach lights, secondary radar/primary radar out of service, restricted area Fort George active the whole thing can go on for 60-90 seconds while your doing 3-4 Nm per min. At that point (25NM) you also usually get cleared down to an altitude anyway and the change to QNH triggers a altimeter cross checking procedure and approach checklists. So the whole thing becomes a bit of a flurry of activity with one crew member removing themselves from the team to collect the wx leaving the PF to single crew it during a busy phase of flight.

WOT MJ JUST SAID!
Perfectly describes it.
Fisbang, while that would be nice it almost always takes longer than an ATIS broadcast, which in your post mentions max 30 seconds. Not too long ago I listened to 34 seconds of guff on Edinburgh's ATIS BEFORE getting to the weather, all of which was either NOTAMed or irrelevant. Inverness is generally worse and most of it utterly irrelevant.
'Activity of a dangerous nature below 500 feet' - describes most of the Scottish Highlands, what's it doing on the ATIS? Like I said, probably done with the best of intentions, but actually very counterproductive. If you think of ATIS as another form of R/T, the same principles apply:
Brevity, Relevance, Clarity.
The CHIRP comment describes it as a growing problem. QED.

If it's a big problem then crew need to start filing ASRs so that CAA change the requirements.

Can someone please tell Easyjet at Gatwick?

Just sprayed my cup of tea.

Is that those paragliders, fannying about about on the point?

MJ - best post I've seen on Pprune lately!

That's before we mention the frequency "planning" which means EMA ATIS freq is same as CDG so approaching from the south in a Big Jet you can't copy ema ATIS till half way down descent through busy airspace with clearances coming thick and fast with PNF off ATC recording all the important stuff like "Birds in the vicinity etc. x"

I mentioned the frequency issue to a friendly ATCO years ago and the reply was "Ah well the DOC is only 60 miles"......

They may have changed the CDG ATIS freq now but it was like this for years!

If its just the weather part you're interested in there isn't even any need to get an ATIS, simply print out the current METAR and you're all set. That is available even if no D-ATIS is available.

fireflybob - its the same at EDI coming from the South. You wil be getting the Schipol ATIS right up to ToD, worse if it's a high pressure day and propagation is good.

Scottish helpfully gives you the runway on first contact, which is nice given the local propensity for the odd intriguing runway change.

Also, anyone know why EDI are determined to tell me the vis is 35k instead of just 10k+, or are they just boasting about the spiffing view from the tower?

BHX Atis is a complete shambles at the moment. Half a dozen different voices repeating same old stuff week in month out. Runway and weather will do nicely - we are obliged to read notams before we fly after all.

As an aside, I am not remotely interested in cloud above ten thousand feet nor on variations in light winds !

beamer,

Yes, but I'd be very rich if I was given £1 every time something that is subject to a NOTAM seems to take a crew by surprise.

Hence why ATIS is a common mititgation in hazard analysis. If it's in AIP/NOTAM and on the ATIS, then maybe more crews will pick up on it.

Not saying that's right, it's just how it is.

Again, if it's a real problem then crews need to submit official reports to the CAA; 'mentioning issues to friendly ATCOs' doesn't achieve what you want, because us 'friendly ATCOs' can't decide ATIS policy. We can ask questions about it, and pass on our own opinion, but when asked where the safety issue is, if there are no reports there, then we can't change anything.

Gonzo, quite agree! I did file a CHIRP report - apparently when MAN had the same issue many moons ago with ATIS being blocked by another station many crews filed CHIRPS report and eventually one of the freqs was changed.

No chance if a crew isn't reading the NOTAMS they will be the ones that won't listen to the full ATIS and just ignore the Guff as its going through until the MET comes up.

If pilots don't know about something try and find out why.

is it because the NOTAM is more than 2 weeks and its being filtered by the planning software.

Is it the fact that the airport has double figures of NOTAMS most of which never change.

A lot of European airports put temp changes through the plate providers and we get temp different coloured sheets through with the details on. They stand out and in general are read.

The doubling and tripling of the same information through different sources is never going to work its just treated as nagging. Then when something is important it gets missed mixed in amongst the Guff.

Its quite easy to tune out what's being said on box two until you hear the trigger word wind. If your the skipper you have to anyway because you will have box one going as well in case something comes up on it which needs your input or you want to make sure the FO gets it right so you don't have a Alt bust to deal with.

You can stick as much crap as you like on the VOLMET if you want. Just give the bare essentials on the ATIS.

I would suggest who ever does your hazard mitigation gets there backside out of there office and goes and flys the line on the jumpseat for 2 weeks 6 days on one off then 5 days with an airline that does 4-6 sector days. Then they might have a clue what mitigates a hazard and what creates one.

I don't actually know what we are meant to do different with half the guff anyway.

Grass cutting h'mm land on the runway and not on the grass?

Birds in the vicinity: Put safety specs on?

WIP in the undershoot: lets not fly 4 reds as usual then.

Dangerous activity below 500ft: tell the FO they are not allowed to fly the downwind at 300ft today.