A question about IFR flights leaving controlled airspace.
 

Okay second question of the night, but may as well try to get everything cleared up.

Recently on an IFR flight from Dublin to Biggin Hill, we eventually left controlled airspace due to airway out-climbing us as such. we were at FL90. We were handed over from Dublin to London Information and told to set 7000. On contact with London Info we were given the 1177 (I think) code and asked if we were IFR or VFR. After it was established that we were IFR we had just reached our clearance limit from Dublin and we asked for further routing and were told it was at our discretion. I understand that we were outside controlled airspace, but would this be a textbook way of this unfolding? Myself and the other crew member both were expecting to be told a point for which to rejoin controlled airspace.

Is it also normal for an IFR flight to be handed over to information?

To give another example which is different but not a million miles away. Routing from Donegal to Newcastle. We get handed over to scottish control, when we leave controlled airspace east of BLACA, we go under ATSOCAS. We do not however change to Scottish Info, and control will still give us directs etc.

Sorry for a possibly muddled up post!

Greetings OhNoCB,

To your first question, I would expect this to be almost invariably what the FISO would say in response to your routing request. There is little else s/he can say within the legal framework for providing a basic service. "Your discretion" indicates that the responsibility is yours to remain clear of terrain, danger areas, CAS and so forth on your way to destination. If however, on first contact with London FIR, you state an intention "to rejoin CAS at XXXXX for Biggin Hill" then I would expect the FISO to facilitate that for you with the sector responsible for that CAS, but how you arrive at that joining point remains your own issue.

With respect to your being an IFR flight handed over to London Information, I would suggest Dublin have little choice, as they're unlikely to have direct telephone lines to the other agencies who might be interested in working your flight outside CAS (eg Western Radar, London Mil). Again, it is up to you to ask on first contact if you feel a radar service would better suit your needs. And again, the FISO will more than likely try very hard to accommodate this request with the most appropriate agency.

I'm not familiar with the airspace in your final example, but I would suggest that if a sector controller is not too busy with traffic inside CAS and s/he feels they are able to provide you with some level of service outside, s/he will offer such. Again, there may be limitations (for instance, where I work we are not permitted to provide a radar service below FL70).

LTP

Thank-you LostThePicture.

I understand that operating outside of CAS does indeed leave us with the responsibility. I suppose it's just as we are more used to the second example, whereby we are still outside controlled airspace but are given still a routing which will take us back into it.

It seemed to us that we were left a bit high and dry, as London info didn't (appear) to know anything about us.

There's loads about this issue on these boards, try also in the private flying section. In the UK if your FPL takes you outside controlled airspace then at that point the centre will dump you and forget about you. It's up to you to decide who you want to work - if you know in advance the centre may hand you over (or pass a pre-note) if they have the time but there's no requirement for them to do so. You'll also see in th private flying section that many people prefer to go it alone in class G and not take a service for various reasons you'll discover. If you want to re-enter CAS it is your responsibility to get a clearance to do so from the appropriate agency, but London/Scottish Info can probably help you here, maybe fisbangwallop can confirm this?

London Information staff do not extract FPL information as the majority of pilots operating outside CAS elect to contact radar units for surveillance services. London Information operates in a reactive manner to freecalls and compiles the flight data from that call. This simply involves writing on a Flight Progress Strip. Coordination between CAS sectors and London Information does not normally take place. When CAS service terminates the pilot is merely reminded that London Information is available along with a reminder of the appropriate frequency.

With regards to your last example. FIS in the area you describe is provided by Scottish information at FL55 and below. Above this level the service is provided by Tay. As Tay is a radar sector you can expect to get a TS or DS if requested. Scottish Information is a FISO service and as such can only provide a BS.

Speaking as an Airport controller, so stand to be corrected :ok:

Scottish FISO service is available at FL55 and below in the geographical confines of the following sectors; TMA, TAY, ANTRIM and parts of WESTCOAST.

Radar services are available at levels above FL55 subject to controller workload and certain level restrictions due to terrain for Deconfliction Service.

Heading EAST from BLACA you will get ATSOCAS firstly from the ANTRIM sector on 123.775 and once below the airways system in the vicinity of DCS you will be working the TAY sector on 124.5.

OhnoCB.....The FC is spot on with his comments. What you need to do though is understand the difference between how London and Scottish ATC provide services Outside Controlled Airspace. London will only provide a radar service within controlled airspace, outside controlled airspace London Information are available for a Basic service from FL195 and below.

In Scotland we do things slightly different.....all of our sectors are allowed subject to work load to provide some form of radar service outside controlled airspace. Scottish Information working 119.875 work the airspace that The Fat Controller mentioned in the previous post at FL55 and below, within this area only a Basic Service will be given, (119.875 is operated by FISO's) if operating above FL55 a TS or DS maybe available subject to work load from the appropriate radar sector.

In your last example routing Blaca-New if you are above F55 a radar service would be available, if at F55 or below your details would be passed to Scottish Information sector and only a BS service given.

As for operating IFR or VFR that makes not one jot of a difference. I hope this helps understand the differences in the way the 2 units operate? :cool:

....because they are not very busy... ;)

London Information's operating practices is out of line with the rest of the developed aviation world.

If you are on a IFR flight plan and leave controlled airspace in the UK, it is possible for you to be passed to London Info. When this happens, your IFR may be canceled, flight plan trashed, further clearance is null and void, and you are forgotten about.

To avoid this happening, insist you are handed over to a London Control frequency instead.

All pilots overseas don't know this. They WERE TOLD they were cleared to their destination airport. But they find out something's not right when suddenly hear the words remain outside controlled airspace, and then find the controlled airspace base levels descending towards the cloud tops / icing level......

<<IFR may be canceled, flight plan trashed, further clearance is null and void, and you are forgotten about.>>

Only a pilot can cancel an IFR flightplan.

<<To avoid this happening, insist you are handed over to a London Control frequency instead.>>

Pointless insisting. London Control is not there primarily to provide ATC to aircraft outside controlled airspace.

Thanks again all.

Fisbangwollop, thanks for explaining the differences between London and Scottish. I am more used to working Scottish and anytime I do work London I am always in CAS and I just expected (very wrongly) for things to work the same way with both.

Fisbangwallop, does that apply to the ex-Manchester sectors or just the "true" Scottish?

Not true, London will provide a radar service outside controlled airspace if workload permits AND the aircraft is FL70+. Also, to the west, ATSOCAS is available from Western Radar when they are open, and if not, sometimes London Military will provide a service.
HD is correct, you can insist all you want but if you are outside CAS it is very unlikely you will get a service from London Control.
Absolute rubbish. Ask London Information (or whoever offers the service outside CAS) to request a joining clearance at the point on the flightplan where you will re-enter CAS and they will (and do every day). They are not always granted but there will be a good reason why not.

zonoma
(London Controller that provides ATSOCAS)

A question. In the US an IFR flight is given a clearance: "cleared to <dest> via <route>...". In the event of radio failure in IMC you are expected to continue all the way to destination via your flight plan route. Sounds like all bets are off in the UK. How does the rest of the world do it?

Zonoma......[QUOTE][ ATSOCAS is available from Western Radar when they are open/QUOTE]

Yes that's the problem......trying to find more than half a day when they are open!!

MarcK - for my information, what would you do in the USA if you went RT failure whilst flying a portion of your flight outside CAS? Would you just re-enter as per the flight plan without a clearance to enter?

Zonoma - there is no IFR flight outside CAS in the USA.

To respond to one of your initial questions:

The whole procedure for Dublin departures operating low-level has changed recently with the change in bases of L975 over the Irish Sea. It used to be the case that Dublin would transfer traffic to the Scottish IOM sector, who would work it (mainly inside controlled airspace, as the bases used to be relatively low, so very little traffic actually left the base of the airway.) Now that the bases have been raised somewhat, the new procedure is for Dublin to transfer traffic at FL120 and below to London Information (as was the case in your specific example.) However, London Information are then supposed to contact Scottish IOM sector for a clearance to re-join CAS. I am a little confused as to why this didn't happen in your example, and you should, in my opinion, have been given further routing (along with your clearance) from London Information. Who did London Information transfer you to after they were finished?

Chilli, do you know why? Safety or just design of airspace so that you can fly almost anywhere IFR? Or on the other hand, is the UK different by allowing it?

We were given a freecall to Cardiff, who gave us clearance into L9 east of AMMAN and we were then handed over to Bristol who eventually handed us over to London Control.

Edit to add: I understand that London info is information, but as with London info we had to give all the details again to Cardiff, who we were what we were where from where to, pob and endurance. I asked Cardiff if they had our flight plan to which they responded yes, making me wonder why we had to give the information again.

It's not quite correct to say there is NO IFR flight outside CAS in the US. You can certainly pick up a clearance on the ground from an uncontrolled airport in class G, and you can certainly fly at altitudes where radar cannot see you (in the mountainous regions) which might technically be below class E, but there is no notion of dropping out of a flight plan. If you lose RT in IMC (if VFR you are expected to land somewhere and sort it out) you continue on your flight planned route. Airspace will be protected for you. Even a destination procedure will be protected for you. There is a lot of class G airspace in Alaska, and I don't believe you lose your flight plan if your route of flight takes you through some of it.

This is a misunderstanding of the UK system...a flight plan is not "trashed" at all. It is not the operating methods of London Info that are out of line with the rest of the world it is the airspace structure that is...

In the UK the basic deal is that London Control are only interested in the portions of the flight that fall within the airways system, if you leave the system then they are not interested and it is up to the pilot's discretion who he talks to.

However if on leaving the airways system (being "outclimbed" by an airway or whatever) if there is still a remaining portion of the flight in the airways later on the flight plan is NOT lost or cancelled.

What has to be done is to contact London Info to negotiate an airways joining clearance for the next portion of the flight that falls within controlled airspace. They will then talk to the airways unit, the airways unit will look at the flight plan and see which bit falls within the airways system and issue a rejoining clearance on the basis of that.

OhNoCB
 

I've been following this with interest....but I'm spurred into action by your 17th Sept addition. I must say that in my opinion....and if the facts are correct...that you received a very poor service which does not reflect the high standards of service delivery normally associated with the dedicated and professional team on London FIR.
A normal process would have been to inquire as to your intended route and with that knowledge the "FIR" would tailor the service and provide timely assistance and/or information. In this case I would have asked for an AMMAN estimate and relayed that to Cardiff.....if a clearance was not immediately available at least Cardiff would be aware and might possibly have issued a transponder code and contact frequency [probably including a "remain outside controlled airspace" or similar] prior to transfer.
Was it exceptionally busy on FIR frequency? I can't second-guess what happened on the day, but I work with all the units you have mentioned on a daily basis and they are very very good....this case should be viewed as unrepresentative of the normal service delivery standard.

Obviously I won't criticise the actions of London Info on the the particular occasion described by the OP because I do not have the full story but what 055166k describes above in terms of the actions by London Info is what I have experienced as a service on the many occasions that I have been IFR in and out of the airways system...

Not unique in allowing it, but unique in making IFR in Class G airspace necessary for low-ish level IFR.

Most other countries have Class E airspace down to very low cruising levels, so you are "in the system" for the entire flight, although you are in an environment where other VFR traffic can fly pretty much the same way as in Class G [ok, higher weather minima, but that's it], so it's "see and avoid" for you...

In the UK, there is LOTS of completely uncontrolled Class G airspace, which is great for freedom, but poor for service... when you are leaving controlled airspace, you are temporarily "outside the system" and have to negotiate your way back into it.

For someone who is familiar with IFR (and ATS in general) outside controlled airspace in the UK, this is not much of a problem; but if you come IFR from another country, it can be a bit of a shock...

Thanks Cobalt, that's what I was trying to work out if the UK was in any way slightly different as I'm aware of the amounts of Class E in surrounding FIRs.

Next question for someone then, when you are given IFR clearance on departure to your destination, what are you actually being cleared for? If given a SID, are you just cleared to the end of the SID or are you cleared to the FIR boundary if remaining inside CAS, or are you cleared to the point at which you leave CAS if you so happen to do that first? I know the RTF procedures and that the given clearance is to incorporate what a pilot should do in this event, however if you leave CAS, you cannot re-enter without a clearance, hence this question. I also know that in the event of a RTF that actually, expect anything to happen and just keep everything else out of the way!

zonoma,

That is a tricky one. On flights wholly within CAS, we are cleared to the destination and will go there if the radio fails, pretty much following the flight planned route and altitudes, and the only times we hold is when we have been given estimated further clearance / expected approach times or arrive earlier than at flight planned time.

But also, the rules say that when losing RT while outside controlled airspace, we should not enter it; which will apply as soon as I leave it temporarily on my planned route.

In real life, I would decide what is safe, in VMC divert to somewhere sensible, and in solid widespread IMC I would continue my flight planned route. I would also default to re-entering CAS as planned - at least then I am doing something expected, rather than turning up on the ILS of some en-route diversion unannounced and unexpected, or at the destination half an hour later because I had to fly around CAS rather than through it...

But I just made that up - what do the controllers here think?

In real life, at that point also the good old ICOM comes out of the flight bag and I would use that to talk to ATC and sort something out, and maybe the mobile might receive something as well...

055166k,

I too have normally received a good service from London Info when making private flights. I am not used to using their service in this way.

I can honestly say that it did not sound busy on frequency that day. I can also say that we WERE asked for an estimate to AMMAN, but this seemed to be for little reason in the end. We were not told by London Info to remain outside CAS. We were not given an airways clearance. WE gave our estimate to AMMAN and then some time later were told to freecall Cardiff Approach.

Again, I am probably just not used to this. It did however seem strange and while I never did think our flight plan had been canceled, it certainly felt like we were dumped at random back into the system to work from the ground up.

It sounds like you may well have needed to actively request airways re-entry on this occasion...not because you should have or needed to but just because as with any ATC unit different controllers sometimes have different expectations of what the aircraft needs/is expecting...

Although I probably did not need to I would always ask on initial contact with London Info if I needed airways re-entry something along the lines of...

"G-xxxx requesting basic service and in due course onward airways clearance from (wherever my flight plan indicated) in accordance with my flight plan"

London Info would then get talking to whoever it was necessary to...

What circumstances permit you to enter controlled airspace without a clearance? If you're outside and want to come in, you have to ask.

I wasn't implying otherwise...

I was just indicating that when talking to London Info and needing an airways joining or rejoining clearance some of the radio operators might deduce that you were indeed of an onward clearance and start going about getting one automatically and then relay it to you...others might not unless specifically requested.

Maybe I misunderstood your post. I'm not at London Info and don't really know how they work, but as a controller I would never arrange airways joining clearance for anyone who hadn't asked me to. How do I know that a) they want it and b) can comply with it? There's no point in wasting my time and the airways contoller's time coordinating it if it's not going to be used. Plenty of people change their routing and decide to remain outside when airborne and the weather is better than forecast, for example. I think it's best to assume you have to ask every time.

Well I'm assuming here (sorry if I'm making unobvious assumptions) that the aircraft has told London Info its routing info in the way that any aircraft would on first contact and that they could retrieve the flight plan...which would show an airways routing on it. I know London Info will not have the flight plan immediately in front of them but they can get hold of it relatively easily...

I think we are perhaps making more of this than it warrants...in the end it comes down a basic principle of dealing with ATC...if in doubt...ask :ok:

Exactly. As I wrote earlier, 'reactive', and that's based on 12 years experience of doing London Info, albeit a little while ago now.

Contacttower

I should have said:

Talkdownman

Post 1261! Have a safe day :-)

Thanks everyone for the input.

I just wanted to get a better understanding from the ATC side of things, which I feel I certainly have a better understanding of now.

Will hopefully lead to less confusion in the future!

Many thanks again.

Ha ha! Well spotted! Anyway, it's Form 1602 now, so hopefully a period of grace for a little while...!

An interesting difference in philosophy between the UK and US. In the US, filing an IFR flight plan and receiving a clearance is effectively a contract between the pilot and the system. The fact that the flight moves into class G ("uncontrolled") airspace doesn't invalidate that contract. Pilots are not expected to change their mind and go somewhere else just because ATC can't tell them what to do because of airspace classification. ATC expects the pilot to follow the plan, and show up as expected even if there are periods of no radio contact (because of terrain or RT failure). Pilots expect ATC to handle their flight when they arrive. Yes, they may have to hold as directed, or take a vector, but they are never "out" of the system.