A question about IFR flights leaving controlled airspace.
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A question about IFR flights leaving controlled airspace.
Okay second question of the night, but may as well try to get everything cleared up.
Recently on an IFR flight from Dublin to Biggin Hill, we eventually left controlled airspace due to airway out-climbing us as such. we were at FL90. We were handed over from Dublin to London Information and told to set 7000. On contact with London Info we were given the 1177 (I think) code and asked if we were IFR or VFR. After it was established that we were IFR we had just reached our clearance limit from Dublin and we asked for further routing and were told it was at our discretion. I understand that we were outside controlled airspace, but would this be a textbook way of this unfolding? Myself and the other crew member both were expecting to be told a point for which to rejoin controlled airspace.
Is it also normal for an IFR flight to be handed over to information?
To give another example which is different but not a million miles away. Routing from Donegal to Newcastle. We get handed over to scottish control, when we leave controlled airspace east of BLACA, we go under ATSOCAS. We do not however change to Scottish Info, and control will still give us directs etc.
Sorry for a possibly muddled up post!
Recently on an IFR flight from Dublin to Biggin Hill, we eventually left controlled airspace due to airway out-climbing us as such. we were at FL90. We were handed over from Dublin to London Information and told to set 7000. On contact with London Info we were given the 1177 (I think) code and asked if we were IFR or VFR. After it was established that we were IFR we had just reached our clearance limit from Dublin and we asked for further routing and were told it was at our discretion. I understand that we were outside controlled airspace, but would this be a textbook way of this unfolding? Myself and the other crew member both were expecting to be told a point for which to rejoin controlled airspace.
Is it also normal for an IFR flight to be handed over to information?
To give another example which is different but not a million miles away. Routing from Donegal to Newcastle. We get handed over to scottish control, when we leave controlled airspace east of BLACA, we go under ATSOCAS. We do not however change to Scottish Info, and control will still give us directs etc.
Sorry for a possibly muddled up post!
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Greetings OhNoCB,
To your first question, I would expect this to be almost invariably what the FISO would say in response to your routing request. There is little else s/he can say within the legal framework for providing a basic service. "Your discretion" indicates that the responsibility is yours to remain clear of terrain, danger areas, CAS and so forth on your way to destination. If however, on first contact with London FIR, you state an intention "to rejoin CAS at XXXXX for Biggin Hill" then I would expect the FISO to facilitate that for you with the sector responsible for that CAS, but how you arrive at that joining point remains your own issue.
With respect to your being an IFR flight handed over to London Information, I would suggest Dublin have little choice, as they're unlikely to have direct telephone lines to the other agencies who might be interested in working your flight outside CAS (eg Western Radar, London Mil). Again, it is up to you to ask on first contact if you feel a radar service would better suit your needs. And again, the FISO will more than likely try very hard to accommodate this request with the most appropriate agency.
I'm not familiar with the airspace in your final example, but I would suggest that if a sector controller is not too busy with traffic inside CAS and s/he feels they are able to provide you with some level of service outside, s/he will offer such. Again, there may be limitations (for instance, where I work we are not permitted to provide a radar service below FL70).
LTP
To your first question, I would expect this to be almost invariably what the FISO would say in response to your routing request. There is little else s/he can say within the legal framework for providing a basic service. "Your discretion" indicates that the responsibility is yours to remain clear of terrain, danger areas, CAS and so forth on your way to destination. If however, on first contact with London FIR, you state an intention "to rejoin CAS at XXXXX for Biggin Hill" then I would expect the FISO to facilitate that for you with the sector responsible for that CAS, but how you arrive at that joining point remains your own issue.
With respect to your being an IFR flight handed over to London Information, I would suggest Dublin have little choice, as they're unlikely to have direct telephone lines to the other agencies who might be interested in working your flight outside CAS (eg Western Radar, London Mil). Again, it is up to you to ask on first contact if you feel a radar service would better suit your needs. And again, the FISO will more than likely try very hard to accommodate this request with the most appropriate agency.
I'm not familiar with the airspace in your final example, but I would suggest that if a sector controller is not too busy with traffic inside CAS and s/he feels they are able to provide you with some level of service outside, s/he will offer such. Again, there may be limitations (for instance, where I work we are not permitted to provide a radar service below FL70).
LTP
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Thank-you LostThePicture.
I understand that operating outside of CAS does indeed leave us with the responsibility. I suppose it's just as we are more used to the second example, whereby we are still outside controlled airspace but are given still a routing which will take us back into it.
It seemed to us that we were left a bit high and dry, as London info didn't (appear) to know anything about us.
I understand that operating outside of CAS does indeed leave us with the responsibility. I suppose it's just as we are more used to the second example, whereby we are still outside controlled airspace but are given still a routing which will take us back into it.
It seemed to us that we were left a bit high and dry, as London info didn't (appear) to know anything about us.
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There's loads about this issue on these boards, try also in the private flying section. In the UK if your FPL takes you outside controlled airspace then at that point the centre will dump you and forget about you. It's up to you to decide who you want to work - if you know in advance the centre may hand you over (or pass a pre-note) if they have the time but there's no requirement for them to do so. You'll also see in th private flying section that many people prefer to go it alone in class G and not take a service for various reasons you'll discover. If you want to re-enter CAS it is your responsibility to get a clearance to do so from the appropriate agency, but London/Scottish Info can probably help you here, maybe fisbangwallop can confirm this?
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Originally Posted by OhNoCB
London info didn't (appear) to know anything about us
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With regards to your last example. FIS in the area you describe is provided by Scottish information at FL55 and below. Above this level the service is provided by Tay. As Tay is a radar sector you can expect to get a TS or DS if requested. Scottish Information is a FISO service and as such can only provide a BS.
Speaking as an Airport controller, so stand to be corrected
Speaking as an Airport controller, so stand to be corrected
Last edited by Glamdring; 16th Sep 2013 at 07:27.
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Scottish FISO service is available at FL55 and below in the geographical confines of the following sectors; TMA, TAY, ANTRIM and parts of WESTCOAST.
Radar services are available at levels above FL55 subject to controller workload and certain level restrictions due to terrain for Deconfliction Service.
Heading EAST from BLACA you will get ATSOCAS firstly from the ANTRIM sector on 123.775 and once below the airways system in the vicinity of DCS you will be working the TAY sector on 124.5.
Radar services are available at levels above FL55 subject to controller workload and certain level restrictions due to terrain for Deconfliction Service.
Heading EAST from BLACA you will get ATSOCAS firstly from the ANTRIM sector on 123.775 and once below the airways system in the vicinity of DCS you will be working the TAY sector on 124.5.
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OhnoCB.....The FC is spot on with his comments. What you need to do though is understand the difference between how London and Scottish ATC provide services Outside Controlled Airspace. London will only provide a radar service within controlled airspace, outside controlled airspace London Information are available for a Basic service from FL195 and below.
In Scotland we do things slightly different.....all of our sectors are allowed subject to work load to provide some form of radar service outside controlled airspace. Scottish Information working 119.875 work the airspace that The Fat Controller mentioned in the previous post at FL55 and below, within this area only a Basic Service will be given, (119.875 is operated by FISO's) if operating above FL55 a TS or DS maybe available subject to work load from the appropriate radar sector.
In your last example routing Blaca-New if you are above F55 a radar service would be available, if at F55 or below your details would be passed to Scottish Information sector and only a BS service given.
As for operating IFR or VFR that makes not one jot of a difference. I hope this helps understand the differences in the way the 2 units operate?
In Scotland we do things slightly different.....all of our sectors are allowed subject to work load to provide some form of radar service outside controlled airspace. Scottish Information working 119.875 work the airspace that The Fat Controller mentioned in the previous post at FL55 and below, within this area only a Basic Service will be given, (119.875 is operated by FISO's) if operating above FL55 a TS or DS maybe available subject to work load from the appropriate radar sector.
In your last example routing Blaca-New if you are above F55 a radar service would be available, if at F55 or below your details would be passed to Scottish Information sector and only a BS service given.
As for operating IFR or VFR that makes not one jot of a difference. I hope this helps understand the differences in the way the 2 units operate?
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Originally Posted by fisbangwollop
In Scotland we do things slightly different.....all of our sectors are allowed subject to work load to provide some form of radar service outside controlled airspace.
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London Information's operating practices is out of line with the rest of the developed aviation world.
If you are on a IFR flight plan and leave controlled airspace in the UK, it is possible for you to be passed to London Info. When this happens, your IFR may be canceled, flight plan trashed, further clearance is null and void, and you are forgotten about.
To avoid this happening, insist you are handed over to a London Control frequency instead.
All pilots overseas don't know this. They WERE TOLD they were cleared to their destination airport. But they find out something's not right when suddenly hear the words remain outside controlled airspace, and then find the controlled airspace base levels descending towards the cloud tops / icing level......
If you are on a IFR flight plan and leave controlled airspace in the UK, it is possible for you to be passed to London Info. When this happens, your IFR may be canceled, flight plan trashed, further clearance is null and void, and you are forgotten about.
To avoid this happening, insist you are handed over to a London Control frequency instead.
All pilots overseas don't know this. They WERE TOLD they were cleared to their destination airport. But they find out something's not right when suddenly hear the words remain outside controlled airspace, and then find the controlled airspace base levels descending towards the cloud tops / icing level......
Last edited by soaringhigh650; 16th Sep 2013 at 15:31.
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<<IFR may be canceled, flight plan trashed, further clearance is null and void, and you are forgotten about.>>
Only a pilot can cancel an IFR flightplan.
<<To avoid this happening, insist you are handed over to a London Control frequency instead.>>
Pointless insisting. London Control is not there primarily to provide ATC to aircraft outside controlled airspace.
Only a pilot can cancel an IFR flightplan.
<<To avoid this happening, insist you are handed over to a London Control frequency instead.>>
Pointless insisting. London Control is not there primarily to provide ATC to aircraft outside controlled airspace.
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Thanks again all.
Fisbangwollop, thanks for explaining the differences between London and Scottish. I am more used to working Scottish and anytime I do work London I am always in CAS and I just expected (very wrongly) for things to work the same way with both.
Fisbangwollop, thanks for explaining the differences between London and Scottish. I am more used to working Scottish and anytime I do work London I am always in CAS and I just expected (very wrongly) for things to work the same way with both.
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London will only provide a radar service within controlled airspace, outside controlled airspace London Information are available for a Basic service from FL195 and below.
To avoid this happening, insist you are handed over to a London Control frequency instead.
IFR may be canceled, flight plan trashed, further clearance is null and void, and you are forgotten about.
zonoma
(London Controller that provides ATSOCAS)
A question. In the US an IFR flight is given a clearance: "cleared to <dest> via <route>...". In the event of radio failure in IMC you are expected to continue all the way to destination via your flight plan route. Sounds like all bets are off in the UK. How does the rest of the world do it?
Last edited by MarcK; 17th Sep 2013 at 02:50.
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Zonoma......[QUOTE][ ATSOCAS is available from Western Radar when they are open/QUOTE]
Yes that's the problem......trying to find more than half a day when they are open!!
Yes that's the problem......trying to find more than half a day when they are open!!
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MarcK - for my information, what would you do in the USA if you went RT failure whilst flying a portion of your flight outside CAS? Would you just re-enter as per the flight plan without a clearance to enter?
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To respond to one of your initial questions:
The whole procedure for Dublin departures operating low-level has changed recently with the change in bases of L975 over the Irish Sea. It used to be the case that Dublin would transfer traffic to the Scottish IOM sector, who would work it (mainly inside controlled airspace, as the bases used to be relatively low, so very little traffic actually left the base of the airway.) Now that the bases have been raised somewhat, the new procedure is for Dublin to transfer traffic at FL120 and below to London Information (as was the case in your specific example.) However, London Information are then supposed to contact Scottish IOM sector for a clearance to re-join CAS. I am a little confused as to why this didn't happen in your example, and you should, in my opinion, have been given further routing (along with your clearance) from London Information. Who did London Information transfer you to after they were finished?
The whole procedure for Dublin departures operating low-level has changed recently with the change in bases of L975 over the Irish Sea. It used to be the case that Dublin would transfer traffic to the Scottish IOM sector, who would work it (mainly inside controlled airspace, as the bases used to be relatively low, so very little traffic actually left the base of the airway.) Now that the bases have been raised somewhat, the new procedure is for Dublin to transfer traffic at FL120 and below to London Information (as was the case in your specific example.) However, London Information are then supposed to contact Scottish IOM sector for a clearance to re-join CAS. I am a little confused as to why this didn't happen in your example, and you should, in my opinion, have been given further routing (along with your clearance) from London Information. Who did London Information transfer you to after they were finished?