Radar ATCO's paid less than TWR ATCO's?
 

Just wanted to get some opinions and find out if this is happening anywhere else in the industry............

At a certain unit in the sandpit, and by coincidence, they have just adverstised for staff due to shortages......its my understanding that the approach radar guys and girls are picking up more shifts and averaging between 25&30 Hrs more a month than their tower counterparts.......FACT! :ugh: but are on the same benefits?!!

is this happening anywhere else?

any feedback welcome:rolleyes:

Well you need to do 3 or 4 personal roster adjustments per month.:ok:
What unit in the UAE is it.Dubai,Abu Dhabi,or Doha?

Guessing Doha.Isn't Serco riding in to help you out.

Lol.......unfortunately personal roster adjustments require a piece of paper or you will loose some benefits!! We are meant to be getting help.........but to get back on par hours wise, we need a minimum of 6 and then the training time could be any where from 3-6 months!! That's an extra 180hrs or 18&1/2 days work for every approach bod..........is it DANGEROUS to have guys working that many hours a month (152) without a sensible recovery period between shifts?? I believe it is!!..........don't believe what they say.....slave labour is not abolished!!

Not that unusual. I work at a Radar Unit in the UK on a low pay band, Controllers with Tower-only validity at a top pay band airport will earn about 25K GBP per annum more......and my rostered hours accrue time off in lieu as a permanent feature.

The lower band radar units you have to do Tower as well.So basically do one rating for nothing.

Not really - you can only do radar or tower at any one time so you're not doing anything for nothing

Some might argue that it's harder work to keep 2 ratings valid and up to date.

For several years, a few of us kept all 3 going. I remember on numerous occasions, using all 3 ratings in one shift. The job satisfaction was immense.

Glamdring... I don't agree. Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Farnborough and Luton all had approach radar at one stage so the controllers had to have dual validations. Never caused me any pain during my time at Heathrow.

The original question is interesting. I loved working in the tower but when the approach side was moved to LATCC I was glad to go. I was 49 at the time and was finding the tower hard graft whereas radar was always quite leisurely. I'm sure some won't agree!

At one time at Farnborough (late 70s), I held 9 validations, some of them for RAF Odiham. For this I had valid Aerodrome Control, Approach control, Approach Radar control, PAR and Area Radar ratings. We used two different radar heads (10cm and 50cm) which required separate validations. We often used Area Radar and Approach Radar simultaneously eg vectoring in the radar pattern and carrying out an autonomous airways crossing at the same time.

Guys, I think the main question has been misunderstood...........banding doesn't exist here, and dual validation is not a choice, ............let me put it another way, would you be happy working more hours than your counterpart at the unit ?....everything else being equal.......for less benefits? When solutions exist to spread the workload equally ! I personally think it creates a divide , hostility,and suggests that approach is in fact a second rate task to the tower.

At the end of your career, it all works out. ATC the world around are their own worst enemy when it comes to us and them. Complain loud enough and you all lose.

FMS,Under normal circumstances I would be very happy for my colleagues.......however it wasn't that long ago the shoe was on the other foot, tower were compensated and things returned to a level playing field.
As experienced ATC's we should all be on the same benefits .........not made to work more for less...... So I feel I am justified in my RANT .!!

Hi 66, I am a bit confused, in your first post you are saying TWR and APP are on same benefits, but APP guys work 2-3 shifts more pr. month.
In your last post you say APP guys are paid LESS for MORE. So APP guys salary are lower than TWR guys? Or are they getting paid SAME for MORE?

Come to Hong Kong where many radar controllers are paid less than Assistants!
Super!:ugh:

Radar ATCOS Paid Less Than Tower ATCOS
 

It has always been my experience that the BASIC discipline in ATC is Tower & the ADVANCED discipline is Approach & Approach Radar (at an Airfield).
The pay scales, wherever I have worked (including NATS), have ALWAYS reflected this.
I was at Jersey for the last 30 years & in the last couple of years we had a Tower only rated ATCO (failed Radar rating validation) who was on approximately half the rate of the lowliest Radar rated ATCO.
The standard progression was to obtain & validate your Tower rating first, & then move on to do the same with the APP & APP Radar ratings. Once you had done this (obtained & validated the APP & APP RDR)you then worked approximately 2 years before achieving PPR (access to the higher salary bracket).
We NEVER had Tower ONLY rated ATCOS who were on a remuneration that was anywhere near to Radar rated ATCOS. Those Radar rated ATCOS were, incidentally, all Tower rated & validated.
I hope that this is relevant to your situation.

I don't think there is a tower controller anywhere in the world making more than me, but I do log in quite a lot of overtime.

OmaATC, Basically app are working more hours for the same.
and in my opinion , in a far more pressurised environment than any tower could ever be!!?? After all should things get out off hand in the tower you have the preverbial STOP button, can't stop them once their airborne!


I'm not unhappy for the tower guys I just think its poor management of resources, and yet again the ground roots staff suffer. Lets be blunt about it FMS,
I Don't there is a person in the world that would be happy sitting back and saying nothing whilst working that many extra hours than their colleagues........is there? I mean would you be happy working an extra 30hrs, and doing more shifts than the guy next to you?

Maybe APP is more busy than tower, but at least here in Abu Dhabi GND is the busy and difficult one.
We are still mostly dual rated over here, so a bit hard to compare, however, I feel a controller is a controller, and no ratings are superior to other ratings (unless you are south-african, as they all seem to think APP is the superior one.)

If you are all single rated in Doha, then comparing one to the other is like comparing apples to oranges. Who should be paid more? TWR, APP, ACC, dual or trippel rated people?

I am sure in your contract there is a stipulation of how many shifts and hours you should do during a month, and as long as you are within that no need to complain. If the guys with TWR ratings are working fewer shifts then great for them. If you are working more than your contract says, then you should be compensated for it, either with more pay or compensatory days off.

And to compare, I believe the guys at ACC gets paid more than me, and working fewer hours than me, but I don't cry about it...

Out of interest, are you getting paid more or less than the guys working ACC? (I believe it is Bahrain doing your area airspace?)

I completely agree that an Atco is an Atco, however.......Approach by its very nature, is more complex ( 3 d as opposed to 2 d ) most of us here have both ratings and some ,all off them!! Just not been given the opportunity or released to cross train. But that's not the point, the point is.... All of the staff that hold dual ratings but have not cross trained are on the exact same t&c's , it's not about the money, or time off either, it's about equality........... You can't expect some staff to work more hours than others doing the same task on the same contract and expect them to smile about it........ Can you? Would you?

I don't want to get into the t&c's intimate details, but suffice to say if yours mentions hours/ shifts............well done for getting that incorporated!!
As for the ACC, your right to a certain degree BAH have above a certain level , but we are autonomous below that, so carry out the ACC function to a limited degree combined with the approach.!!
And I' m sure you'd agree ACC by its very nature of multiple sectors and a complete radar environment , will always be the better paid discipline in ATC.

SuzieWong, that sounds so wrong!

Same applied at a big airport near me many years ago.

I say - Mr. omaATC, rather broad brush strokes don't you think??...

By all means, I am not saying it is fair or right. but as Plazbot says, by the end of your career it all works itself out. Maybe 2 years from now the APP guys are better staffed than the TWR guys, it all goes in circles.

But I will disagree with you in saying that by nature APP is more complex than TWR, and ACC more complex than APP. It all depends on the unit, the airspace, local rules and regulations and staffing. If the TWR is complex, you open ground, delivery, 2nd ground, planner. If APP is complex, you open Departures, Arrivals/director, Coordinator, planner and so on. If ACC is complex you open more sectors, 2 controllers in each sector, planner and so on. At the end of the day, a single controller or sector can only handle so much traffic, and you adjust accordingly.
Having held all three ratings, I would say busy approach procedural is for me the most complicated one, but what does it matter?

Enough drift from the original topic, no it is not fair that some people work more hours/shifts than other people at the same contract.

Reportyourlevel & Onthebeach
 

To whom, & where, exactly do you direct your comments ? & which mates do you have in mind ?

Sorry, posted this comment to the wrong thread. Please see Scatcc comments.

..........

Read this post and thought in the interests of fairness a few things should be highlighted.1) The title is misleading, both Tower and Approach are paid the same wages, although currently the two are on differing shift patterns.2) The timing of the post is interesting. Historically shifts have always changed in Tower at this time of year due to the annual religious holiday and the large number of staff that request time off due to this. The Tower controllers have actually been working the same hours for the last month and a half. Interestingly though no complaint was made from approach during August when the Tower guys ended up working morning night shifts on the same day. Now that this has changed apparently its a big deal.3) In terms of rostering approach end up with a better pattern overall. They at least have some form of watch system and know that their shift pattern remains fairly constant. Tower do not have this luxury and it is not uncommon for them to be called in on their days off to cover shifts. When a shift pattern only allows for 1 sleep day and 1 day off at the end of a cycle you can appreciate that the situation isn't ideal. Therefore whilst on paper they work less the reality is that some **** cycles can turn into 8+ days on shift without a day off.4) It is unfair to suggest that the approach controllers are busier. The fact remains that it is a very busy international airport with complex traffic patterns and a wide variety of users. Both tower and approach have their intricacies and work hard at what they do. The current situation probably isn't ideal for either side of operations but steps are being taken to increase staff numbers and when that happens hopefully everyone will be happy. Until then it really doesn't help to bicker and it is better that people remember that whether you are approach or tower you are, at the end of a day, a team who should support each other.

Is it the case that the tower atcos are doing more, shorter shifts per month? Consequently getting fewer days off. Is it also the case that the tower roster is less predictable and that tower atcos are not able to plan their time off until they actually receive the revised roster on the third(ish) of the month?

With these things in mind, is the tower atco really doing any better? If the rosters were swapped would you still be complaining about the drawbacks?

As others have said - it all balances out!

<<Approach by its very nature, is more complex>>

Now there's a man who needs to sit on GMC for a couple or hours at a busy airport in fog!

Goddammit and LHR Director
 

To a certain degree Goddammit those elements are true , however doesnt the same roster have standby days which if not called in equate to MORE time off?!! approach roster can be varied with little notice.......and the fact remains approach ARE working btwn 25-30 hrs extra per month!!

LHR Director.......... Said Man HAS worked LHR GMC in LVPS......and I can assure you, this is far more complex!!!! But point taken thanks

Yup, with reduced flow rates, labelled ATM and labelled SMR plus other bells and whistles it's really, er, not very hard.

<<LHR Director.......... Said Man HAS worked LHR GMC in LVPS......and I can assure you, this is far more complex!!!!>>

OK. I've worked procedural aproach and area and approach radar. I've also worked Heathrow GMC in the days before labels and the other gadgets. Anyway, let's not argue. It's just my personal opinion which isn't worth much!

Standby days - I believe these leave the individual liable for a short notice phone call to cover any of the four shifts on that day. I wouldn't even know when to plan to sleep in those circumstances, so doesn't sound like a day off.

:rolleyes:

Radar ATCO's paid less than TWR ATCO's?
 

You'll only have to cover the shift if you answer your phone........!!!!

Radar ATCO's paid less than TWR ATCO's?
 

Any news on bums in seats in the near future?

Stand by days are not days off and should never be viewed as such.

I have always approached them as firstly a morning on minimal sleep, get up at normal morning shift time, do stuff then back to bed late morning or mid day and sleep as long as possible. Works well for all shifts.

Jh86

Thanks for the input........, however may I just confirm that the title is in fact technically correct....... tower are working less hours for the same pay and conditions, so by reasonable deduction 1 can only deduce that towers hourly rate is FAR better than approaches ....ergo Twr are paid more than Radar!!! It is not only, A combination of being on a slightly stretched variation of our MANSO roster ( more time to recover btwn shifts!!) but also that the shifts are 2 hrs shorter!! ( more time off!!) far better working conditions in my opinion!! As for the 8+ shifts in a row.........?? That is an extreme example and wouldn't happen if your phone was switched off!!
I agree that we are a team and should be supporting each other........however Wasn't it the case when approach were working the SAME 8 hr shifts and tower were working the SAME 6 hour shifts.......IE radar working more than tower ....ooh EXACTLY what's happening now??!!! Didn't same tower ATCO's jump up and down and moan that Approach were getting more than Tower ?(even though we were working more hours as we are now....! and justified the extra payment.....! ) and end up not only getting the extra payment for working the lesser hours but actually had it backdated!!! Hmmmm not sure ....but am I not justified slightly in feeling a bit seen off?!!! And that fact in mind.......are we not treated independently ( separate roster, different working conditions, less pay for more hours worked)and are in fact two different UNITS/TEAMS?!!!

If you feel so aggrieved, why do you stay? There are other jobs out there.

Robor66
It seems that you've been unhappy at your present unit for at least two years and that this minor difference in pay is just another symptom of your disaffection. Have you actually calculated how many rials an hour/day that you feel you are missing?
I'm no expert but I see two possible routes to salvation, either find a new job or "suck it up princess".