Spanish ATC? WHY?
 

My Dear Spanish ATC Controllers,

I have been flying in and out of Spanish airspace over the last few weeks... And have done so for many years.

I know you are very clever, thoughtful, intelligent people, this is why you do this job... Yes?... I know the answer is yes.

It seems that some are back to the usual unhelpful inefficient selves again sadly. surprise surprise.

My Spanish colleague on a couple of flights heard the locals getting all the short cuts.... He was embarrassed, and wanted to say something on the RT but thought it wasn't worth it.

My understanding of Air Traffic Control was that you control an aircraft from A to B in a safe and expeditious manner. This is what the UK, Dutch, German, Swiss, Portuguese, Greek, Scandinavian, Irish ATC [in no particular order] et al do so well. And I thank you all for a job very well done, and for the humour we share when it is 03:00Z and we are all still at work but would rather be at home in bed.

Spanish ATC, please sort your selves out, you bring shame on a great country. every pilot who flies through your airspace hears the negative way you control aircraft, and every aircraft you control pops over to Lisboa, or Brest, or Santa Maria and then talks to a helpful ATC controller who it is a pleasure to talk to.

How come we get no direct routings even if it makes only 2 degrees difference to our track, but yet when we leave Spanish Airspace in any direction, every other sector controller says to all of us XXX direct where ever you want to go?

It wastes time, fuel, environment and anything else you can think off.

Please redeem yourselves and show us how fantastic you can be. I know you can be great.

I really mean it! Come on:D

I don't suppose I'd feel too helpful had I been treated the way they are. Really they need independent mediation and a fresh start with a government/union truce, but I fear they are a few years too late for this. The whole situation is a mess and repercussions will be felt for a generation.

As for being taken off flight-planned route or stepping off any standard procedure - the argument that has been rolled out many times is that under new draconnian laws the individual ATCO is liable for jail and eye-watering fines. Would you step off an SOP with this constantly hanging over you?

The issue and resolution is not with the individual ATCO, rather a system which is dangerous and broken.

I must say i have to agree with the above. Only in Spain can the government impose new legislation over night. Lets not forget that i believe AENA found themselves in so much not due to the controller pay, (I mean they did earn a lot but only 1 day off in august amd being forced to come in if needed?).
Then when all this kicked off, they used the controllers as scape goats and told the public in Spain that its because of them that there is this huge deficit.
To this day, the government hasnt come out and said its because of the very poor management of AENA.

With Europe getting involved, i can only see it getting worse I'm afraid and the only thing that is left for controllers is to make sure they do everything by the book in case they go to jail or get heavily fined as is the case in a few European countries now.

The way I look at it is that to be a controller, you used to be a professional person doing a great job to the best of your abilities but I fear Europe is trying to take that away with SES 2+.

The original post suggest that quite a few other agencies do send direct routeings but I dont think it will be a case of bringing Spain up again to what they used to be, my fear is that the rest od Europe will go the same way.......

Sorry, it is a little pesimistic.

Thank you guys. I mean it.

First of all let me join Sonnendec thanking for you tempered response.

To the OP, as you can see spanish atcos face huge amounts of pressure which have nothing to do with the traffic load (although that one is also way over the top with Aena ignoring sector capacity figures).

Besides that, there are other factors which might contribute to your negative experience of our work. You might not be aware that Aena has not trained new controllers since the last batch from 2006. This obviously means serious understaffing (even Eurocontrol agrees to that... you might want to check the reason codes for delays within spanish airspace... see how much belongs to "ATC Staffing" or "ATC Capacity"... and no, no "ATC industrial action") and Aena has only managed to barely hold on to it by relocating staff from privatized towers.

I am lucky not to work in any of them but if half of what I've heard from thos who did is true they are a huge safety risk waiting to explode from "risk" to "fact".

Might I enquire on what route you were flying? Several ACCs have currently several trainees (from the privatized towers) on frequency. They have been rushed through their local endorsement with blatant disregard for safety just in order to have them available (at least on the paper) for the peak summer times. Don't expect a freshly minted route atco to be able to accomodate all requests for direct routings while barely being able to keep up with the traffic load.

I will be flamed for this but nevertheless: You may know that about a week ago we had a terrible train crash in Santiago with 79 victims? The morning after all headlines blamed it on the driver and our Dear Ministry (read as in: North Korean's Dear Leader) of public works was praising the safety of our railsystem and that the train was making 190 km/h when at that specific curve it had to make 80 km/h maximum.
Now I am aware that the driver does also have partial responsibility for what happened but in this morning's paper was the amusing fact that our railway system is going to be upgraded with a newer safety mechanism (already widely in use here but not on that specific curve) which will reduce the speed on that curve to 30 km/h maximum (I thought 80 was safe?) automatically.
And the question is, couldn't we have done all that before killing nearly 80 people? Read carefully and apply insight to spanish air traffic control.

Fly safe.

What is the reason they do not train new staff?

good question,
now watch the answers, ;)

Hey, but there must be a reason other than some union 'deal'. It seems that the situation has been 'dealt with' and now they have all these King's decrees, abnormal fines etc. So what is the problem with training new staff? If lack of staff is a major problem, this should be the first concern to AENA management. OK, I can imagine the process can be inefficient, especially if there are a lot of vacancies to fill, but, if I get this right, there are no new trainees at all?

The way I read it, they're not being allowed to recruit any new staff to train. Some towers have been 'privatised' and the AENA controllers transferred to other units without the correct ratings ie they've got ADI/ADV (Aerodrome Control) ratings but not ACC/ACS (Area Control) ratings.

Money, as simple as that.

Not only in ATC. For example, Spain's National Police Academy: normally around new 5.000 police officers per year. This year only around 150.

In my airport, there were 12 ladies doing the cleaning in the terminal building, 8 were fired on may (beginning of the high season). So now 4 ladies have to do the work of 12. In my TACC there were two ladies cleaning from monday to friday, one guy that did the glass/window cleaning, and one lady that cleaned on weekends. Both the guy that cleaned the windows and the lady that came on weekends have been fired. So now the two other ladies have to do their work also.

Interesting and sad all the above is it goes no way to explaining why nationals are treated 100% better than 'forrins'. Professionalism should mean you do not take your grievances to the aircraft. Spanish ATC has been doing it 'this way' for at least 25 years. Time to grow up?

I'm also curious as to why domestic carriers are allowed skip the queue in Spanish Airspace? Any controllers in Barajas who could shed some light on this on here? Also there have been a number of incidents where Shanwick/Maria have sent in oceanic clearances that Madrid have taken 25 mins or more to deliver, resulting in level busts due to a flight being given 5 mins to climb 2000 feet and increase from m075 to m078 with a tailwind. This has been going on for years, reasons?

"Now I am aware that the driver does also have partial responsibility for what happened but in this morning's paper was the amusing fact that our railway system is going to be upgraded with a newer safety mechanism (already widely in use here but not on that specific curve) which will reduce the speed on that curve to 30 km/h maximum (I thought 80 was safe?) automatically.
And the question is, couldn't we have done all that before killing nearly 80 people? Read carefully and apply insight to spanish air traffic control."

Daermon, I agree, Looks like a stitch up of the driver by the authorities to cover up the fact that the railway’s design and operating procedures were fatally flawed. We could end up with a Uberlingen situation here where the driver gets so blamed by the victims that his life is at risk, when it was maybe only 10% his fault, if that.

To use an aircraft analogy this railway is like trying to land a 747 on autoland on a short runway and then at the threshold telling the pilot to switch to manual and somehow loose a lot of speed to stop going off the end. At the same time ATC call him up and issue other instructions he has to respond to.

Okay, we get the message... the rail disaster is a very good analogy of what could soon happen in Spanish airspace if working conditions don't improve, according to some controllers there.

We're all aware of the gross mis-management of AENA, the embargo on recruiting new staff, the gruelling shift hours and overtime, the draconian fines for not complying with procedures... but do any of these explain or justify the favouritism of certain (or all?) controllers, why domestic carriers are getting short cuts and the rest are not? Is the question too thorny to answer?

Does it depend on the personal attitude of each individual controller, whether he or she has a nationalist grudge against foreign airlines? Is there some secretive AENA rule in force, encourageing such favouritism? Do AENA corruptly receive some form of commission from domestic airlines for each short cut they get? Surely (I hope) the answer is no to all of these questions. But what then is the reason? There must be some incentive, some motive to explain this.

Come on, AENA controllers, lets address the very first question of this thread. Or do you also face a 250,000 Euro fine for revealing too much information on public forums? :rolleyes:

Maybe apparent local favouritism is less of an issue than people think. I like to think I am utterly fair when someone has to have priority. That is my job. I also feel sure that my main airlines get priority more often than visitors just by pure 50/50 law of averages it will seem to airline X that based airline A always get served first. This would be an illusion based purely on numbers. Add the paranoia of speech in a foreign language and I can understand how it could feel as though you are being cheated.

I have many priorities as a controller and near the top of them is to keep my job while all around are feeding me opportunities to lose it. It is not an easy job and jumping the queue with someone because they speak the right language or support the right tail fin takes a lot of extra work. While not impossible I just don't believe that a workforce derided in one breath as being incompetent suddenly gains the extra skill to weave their favourites to the head of the queue all the time.

What I find easier to believe is that a stretched and put-upon workforce are doing the best they can under trying circumstances with morale at unimaginable lows, yet they still manage to move traffic in vast numbers (MAD must be busier than LHR now; BCN is busier than LGW).

I agree with you Dan Dare. I have worked in three different countries and four different airports and together with all of my colleagues we have always applied the common-sense and logical law of least average delay, where no one aircraft is overly penalised or delayed, regardless of nationality... unless, of course, there is an unusual situation or emergency that could jeopardise safety, and that aircraft(s) is unduly given priority.

Fokker1000 is not the only one who has complained here... there have been many, many similar complaints in the past, and not all at overworked and understaffed MAD or BCN... hence my apparent frustration. Don't get me wrong, I fully applaud AENA controllers for moving vast numbers of aircraft, as safely as they can, under such threatening and demoralising conditions for many years now. But the instances of alleged "favouritism" seem to be a lot more frequent and coincidental than those (if any) from other countries. Judging by the posts on this forum alone, that cannot be denied.

Edit: Regarding the paranoia of speech in a foreign language, fokker1000's colleague was a Spanish native, so could obviously understand and was embarrassed at what was going on.

These claims of 'favouritism' go back at least 40 years in the UK to my knowledge and probably further. It will always happen as pilots don't have adequate knowledge of the task of a controller and how priorities are decided to get the most orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic.

- indeed. However, despite your noble motives, in Spain "the most orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic." applies to national carriers and has nothing to do with 'fairness', I'm afraid. Like cancelling all Eurocontrol slots at MAD and releasing 1 Spanish carrier every 3 minutes. Been there, got the T-shirt, and dropped the MAD aerodrome manager into deep doo-doo with Maasticht :ok: Yes.

Used to be BOAC first, followed by BEA, then all the rest!
My first fam flight into Glasgow with Dan Air (748), the crew said 'how come BEA get to go in first and we get held off?'

Better staff travel:}

Mmmm. Pressure. Nasty....
Its connected to the weight of their EU busting wallets, isn't it?
Certainly unconnected with traffic load or professionalism. Without question.:ugh

You're not comparing Spanish controllers with La Liga football players are you?
BARCA!

For me it´s easy: Flight plan route, only until I retire.

I don´t think controllers in UK, Germany, France or other EU country have been forced to work 1750 hours each year. We were.

No other controllers in EU were militarized. We were.
I could continue, but no reason...

As some people said before, this can´t be solved in few time, will take at least a generation.

By the way, just 2 days ago one of our sectors had 130% of its capacity, not a bad oveload. Of course will be our fault for giving directs and changing TFCs from their requested flight level (We really had that answer more than once after complained for overloads, and you wonder why we don´t give DCTs or change lvl???).

Good luck when flying over sPAIN.

Working 1750 hours a year.
 

I symphathize with the spanish controllers as I can´t imagine the current situation to be especially enjoyable but:

That comes down to ~145,8 hrs a month, 36,5 hrs a week, which with all due respect is not a whole hell of a lot. How many hours were you working before the military stepped in and the current situation materialized?

I work a 38 hrs week and approximately 15-16 days a month, how is your rotation with a 36,5 hrs week?

Good question SThor, and bear in mind that their 1750 hours are comprised of 1670 mandatory plus 80 overtime, should they be required.. which probably are in today's climate, I'd imagine.

chevvron, I haven't worked in the UK so can't comment on any unfavourable discriminatory practices there. If they do exist, I've been blissfully unaware... :zzz:

Nice try guys, but don´t bother. They already have all the answers and dont want to hear anymore.

Spanish controller-bashing is a well known PPrune sport.

Best regards.

Do you really want to know how we worked in summer 2010?

A normal rotation was Morning-Afternoon-Morning-Afternoon-Zulu (morning + night) and then 24 hours rest until starts again. 5 days of work (one with 2 shifts) sleeping day off. But once a month we enjoyed a free day, was only 4 days rotation!.

Several controllers worked 30 turns in a month.

And, who the hell Works 1750 hours in shifts? including nights, hollydays, christmas and so on! Only in Spain.


And for your question: I worked 1200 hours/year, as my conditions said. And I would have been happier if they had hired more people, you know we have about 6 million unemployed, instead forcing me to work. Yeah, they paid me more, but I still want my FREE TIME!.

I´m not trying to belittle spanish ATCO´s but:

I work 1672 hrs in shifts (38 hrs a week, 152 hrs a month x 11 months, including nights, easter, christmas etc etc and so on. 24/7/365. Not 1750 hrs but still. That is without a single minute of overtime.

1200 hrs/year comes down to 25 hrs a week, quite a difference from 1750 hrs.

When working 1200 hrs how exactly were you forced to work more? (Prior to the military stepping in?)

Again, not trying to put you guys down, just curious...

Foreword:
I strongly condemn the way ATCOs in Spain were (and are) treated, and I support your fight, if there is any, to bring things back to normality.

But:
@Sonnendec
PPRunE as a Spanish controller-bashing arena??
Ok... Can you answer me a simple question. Why do you think this is happening? Why do you think that many pilots and some of the controllers here and there express their negative feelings towards the Spanish airspace management?

I mean, there must be an answer... We have pilots from all over the world, and controllers too. Controllers who work in their home country, for the state-owned ANSP, or private service providers, and ATCOs who work as "mercenaries" in foreign countries. Some of these earn a lot, others much less. Some of them have the luxury of a Union, others have no protection at all... And again, some of the controllers are working in extreme traffic loads (sector capacity is just one of the numbers), while others can drink coffee and read newspapers...
But as you say, only the Spanish guys are being "bashed". Why? I want to hear your opinion?

@Akhorahil
I see, in 2010, 3 years ago, you were living in a nightmare. 30 turns in a month is almost unimaginable - in EU at least.
But today, if we take 4-6-4 (off-on-off) or 3-5-3, or approximately 19 days of work in a month, 8 or 8.30 hours shifts - depends on hour of the day, sector etc.., 12 months. Add one day of mandatory overtime (at home stand-by) per month, plus around 60-80 hours of voluntary (extra paid) work done off the sector (OJTI or EXAM, writing presentations or workbooks for classes)... At the end you can deduct 200-250 hours of annual leave... I think of numbers around 1700. EU of course... And I think we all work 24/7/365, regardless of Christmas, New Year's eve, Labor Day...

That said, I still think that your two statements;
"Flight plan route, only until I retire" and "Good luck when flying over sPAIN" are utterly unprofessional. Regardless of your personal feelings towards your employer, or your low morale, you still have to give your best. Because your "clients" are not the one to blame. And because you have to stand tall and show all your expertise and knowledge! Being and ATCO is something you should be proud of, and not just sit there and wait for the pension all poor and whining.
Your words remind me of a well known businessman from Ireland, who called ATCOs "overpaid and underworked bunch of...". Well, the call sign RYR still gets directs and requested FL in my area... The pilots and passengers are not guilty if the head-of is one d-head...

As said at the beginning, I express all my support to you Spanish colleagues. But here and there a mirror to look in, comes handy...

So SThor how many hours do you work every year? And please don't count your holidays, I'm sure you don't work more than 1450 hours.
Tell me please, let us all know!!
Do you work any month 170 hours? I do.
Have you ever been forced to work on any of your days off? I have.
Have you ever worked at 110%, 120% or 130% of you sector capacity? I have.

Now please tell us how many hours you work.
Thank you

but,

as far as I know,ex-YU

around 156 hours /flat rate (everything is including )
Unofficially lowest around 110 ( a few lucky units) and 180 maximum (again a few and remote *)
and if understand correctly Europe is somewhere there also *(in terms of ATCOs working hours :} )
12x156= 1872

overtime is not uncommon,but starts after these standard hours

"six four" (standard Middle East option ) translates as 144 monthly multiply 12 equals 1728

and yes people going from Europe to Middle East. ;)

Just before saying that nobody likes you,refer to numbers. :ok:

Don't you lot do half an hour on half an hour off. If so you really only work about 850 hours per year.

To answer another question most Ops and crewing bods work 12 hour shifts 4 days on 4 off, early/late/night shifts. With 4-6 weeks leave a year that's somewhere around 2200-2300 hours per year...and not just in Spain either. Oh and for not much more than minimum wage.

I can work up to 2000 hours per year and up to 16 hour duties with NO break and then be positioned, without time limit, to anywhere the company chooses to make me go. Sometimes I start at 0400 and sometimes that's when I finish aaaand it's generally random. And no, I can't refuse except on safety grounds.

Pin.....pulled.

To be honest although it is not economical i'm quite happy with the spanish flight plan route. At least i don't get vectored right into other aircraft as they used to do before that.

I agree with UpperATC in that I support spanish atco´s and their plight, and he is right, a quick look in a mirror can help everyone.

If you (spanish guys?) reread my first post:

However you guys are way too sensitive and go on the defensive at the drop of a hat...

I´m not the enemy and as I said I support spanish ATCO´s.

To answer atcstudent:

1672 hrs mandatory. Say I work 3 extra shifts per month I go up to 1985,5 hrs (180,5 times 11 months as per below) voluntary.

I have, a standard 152 hrs month with say 3 or 4 extra shifts (9,5 hrs each), 28,5 hrs / 38 hrs, comes down to 180,5 and 190 hrs respectively. Granted, all voluntary and I would not be pleased if my company tried to force me to work on days off.

I have not and I hope I never will be.

Yes and no. Where I work there is a dynamic sectorisation dependant on traffic flow. Have been anywhere between yawning and bursting.

I´m not trying to be a di*k...

I stopped looking at this thread a few days ago when the known meme started again: "you give priority to national carriers". I have answered that same line a few times here and saw no further point to it.

Now I must admitt that this thread has turned out to be fairly civilized contrary to Sonnendec's opinion so here go my two cents.

As has been pointed out before, perception of giving priority to spanish carriers can just arise due to the increased probability of finding spaniards. Since there is an underlying preconception that we do prioritize them any direct given to a spaniard will be significantly more noticed than on non-spaniards. This is called confirmation bias.

Another fact that has been pointed out is that it actually takes extra effort to alter the "natural" sequence ... and most of you don't believe we are capable of it as masterly stated by Dan Dare.

Another fact that none of you seems to consider is that even if we were capable to give that little extra help to spanish carriers... WHY would we do it? You might not know that we have been branded criminals by 99% of spanish society of all political inclinations or income. Our reputation is on par with dregs of society, in fact, when making new aquitances and asked about my job I say something like "I work at the airport with a computer" or something like that. Not out of deception but because I know (firsthand experience) that if they knew my real job they would immediately biased against me without allowing the chance to know me.

So as you see I have absolutely no gratitude for this country and I save all my national pride for the national football team. Spain and all it's petty rabble who stoned my reputation without a second thought can rot in our current economic crisis for all that I care. Do ut des. Can anybody tell me why I should be favoring spanish carriers?

In any case I will concede one point explaining one situation where there is probably a bias towards favoring spanish-speaking carriers. Not all spanish atcos are really fluent in english. All manange ICAO lvl4 but are not at ease with heavy accent or complicated explanations. If such an atco needs to issue complicated insructions in order to use a space in the sequence, it is very likely that he'll do so in spanish, not out of a nationality preference but because if he tried to explain the same situation in english it would take much longer and then the chance would no longer be there.


The other main topic in this thread is about working hours. Initially they don't seem too much and it is also true that years ago some people worked way over that (and were very handsomely paid for it, all be told). Nevertheless there are now two main differences (and no, salary has also changed but is not really one of the key factors despite what some may think).

1) Before some who felt fit enough or worked in some easier sectors decided voluntarily to increase their working hours but some others didn't even if they would have been also richly paid. They stuck to 1200 hours or thereabouts... these people are now having the most trouble adjusting. And let's keep in mind that with current reduced rest time 1500 hours today are not the same as 1500 hours 4 years ago.

2) Previously you could plan ahead your life. Currently you get shift planning with one month in advance and it can be changed more or less at will by Aena. For example they can tell you on your way out of the job (or while in your position, handling live traffic) that you are required for duty tomorrow. I have the information (third hand, but I trust the source) about a guy making some shift changes with colleagues in order to have free a specific date (brother's wedding if I remember correctly), handing all the changes to HR... and then HR answering with a smile: OK, changes approved and now that you have day XXX available, here is a mandatory service for that day.

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"? Might be, but we have here close seconds. Oh, and next time ask any spanish atco about how AENA understands maternity leave and worktime reduction to raise children... or did I mention that at my unit people were recalled and put to work while they were on holidays?

Back on topic, it's not only how much we have to work know but rather more the fact that we can't plan for anything. We are at the complete mercy (or rather lack of thereof) from Aena to be forced to work at their whim.


Hope this helps with the explaining.

Chapeau. :D

@Daermon ATC
I'm new to this topic - I can't find anything on a quick Google search to give me background on what you say. Do you have any reliable sources I can look up, please? I don't doubt your word, but I'm interested to see how ATC can be so regarded.

El PSOE acusa al PP de colocarse 'al lado de presuntos delincuentes' | España | elmundo.es

Fomento niega conversaciones con los controladores porque "no negocia con chantajistas" - 20minutos.es

Controladores aéreos a la cárcel

https://m.facebook.com/pages/Control...%2Fsearch&_rdr

El PSOE acusa al PP de &quotplanificar&quot la huelga y el PP responde pidiendo la dimisión de Blanco | Intereconomía | 403480

And on and on and on..... it's all in Spanish, sorry.

- firstly I am totally sympathetic to your claimed injustices.

Regarding the quote - no - sorry to inform you that this is called fact. From 1988 up to 2008 I have many instances (mainly into MAD) where this has happened, and it was MAD where the senior manager was interviewed by Eurocontrol for the major breach of slot allocation to which I referred. I also experienced going from number 4 in the hold for R18 at MAD one evening to number 6 after 20 minutes holding while ?guess who? proceded ahead and landed. I have also experienced 'selective' arrivals and departures at BCN. You may not have seen it happen Daermon, but many of us have - and ONLY in Spanish controlled airspace

Thank you so much Daermon for finally addressing the question at hand and for giving us some plausible reason as to why domestic carriers are benefitting. Controllers with poor English can be a liability (or at the very least a hindrance) in many countries, although it would appear that there is a higher concentration in Spain. Perhaps a minimum of Level 4 is not sufficient afterall, and maybe the required standard should be higher. In Spain, I'd imagine that this is not just a problem for AENA, but also for AESA, and ultimately SENASA who test and award the Level 4 certificates.. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Obviously not every controller needs to be that improficient or incompetent, but it only takes a minority to give the rest of you a bad name. In any case, it seems that your system needs a radical overhaul... 1200 or even 1500 hours per year seems very low compared to the rest of us, albeit with 120/130% load factors. If you now do your 1670 or 1750 maximum annual quota as required, should the load factors not be reduced accordingly if there are (theoretically at least) more staff and sectors available to open..?