Filton had a 424 or similar - I think its gone now. The big (264?) on the hill went in the last couple of years too. A shame - quite a landmark.

The East Midlands 424 is indeed in the Aeropark - and now even the right way up! Google Earth shows it on its side. Looks as if its been given a lick of paint too. Now, on that subject - something that's been bugging me for at least 40 years ...

In the early 70's the EMA 424 head was red. It changed colour to mustardy yellow. Why? Was it a new unit? An overhaul? a change in airfield equipment colour regulations. Or just a spruce up ...

Cheers

Or simply faded by the blistering sunshine for which the region is renowned? :ok:
Saw it used in 'short-pulse' mode one day, similar to an ASMI. You could make out the shape of a BMA Viscount quite clearly.

Interesting to note how in the sixties the Decca 424 was the "popular" choice for the civilian and military ATC providers. Then came the seventies selection of the 430, AR1, AR1.5 and Marconi 264. Come the eighties it was back to really just two models, i.e. The Watchman and S511. I recall Racal even having a crack at the approach radar market about 25 - 30 years ago, targeting their model at smaller regional airports but I don't believe it caught on. Nowadays I think Raytheon fairly well have the market to themselves. I hope the old bangers and museum pieces have a few years of life left in them yet though.

Still intrigued to know who bought LBA's old 430, and why ? :suspect:

Mooncrest,
I remember the night of the 32 river. I was on TMA NE at EGCC that evening, we did grin a bit.
I also remember a D watch afternoon duty on the Mediator Suites, (i.e. prior to 1993), when, (due to fog), EGNM was the only airport 'open' in northern England.
You accepted everything we offered you. One of the ATSAs asked "where the fcuk are they parking them all?", Yeadon High-Street was the reply. 126.65 became almost a No. 1 Director frequency for Leeds. Brilliant shift!
As I groped my way to the staff car-park at 22.00, there was a P.A. announcement for "Air Malta passengers to board a bus for EGPK" for a 4.5hr journey to their aircraft. Great days!
Are you a fan of 'Steeleye Span' by any chance?

Zooker,

This is what happens when you build an airport on a hilltop marsh. I think, to be fair, nobody could have predicted the golf course river farce but it's the sort of thing that could only happen at LBA !

I've been on duty at LBA a few times when we were practically the only airport open. Not 1993 though, that's before my time. It's quite a bizarre sight to behold, with Flybe, City Airline, VLM and God knows what else parked in every conceivable corner. It doesn't happen very often but it makes for an interesting shift when it does.

As this is a radar thread, may I ask what approach radars you were using at Manchester back in the eighties ? I remember the Marconi (264 ?) close to the (then) 24 threshold and a circular red and white stripey thing closer to the hangars.

As for Steeleye Span, I wouldn't say I was a fan. I remember "All Around My Hat" in 1975 and "Gaudete" a couple of years before. Jimmy Young once played "Padstow" on his Radio 2 programme about twenty years ago. Maddy Prior is, or was, the lead singer. That's about it ! A bizarre question, mind you. Why do you ask ??:confused::confused:

The red and white circular thing was an ACR 6 with updated TX RX.

Thankyou Canard. Can't say I've heard of the ACR6 but I'll try to find out about it. What were the TX/RX mods you mention ? I have come across cases of "standard" ATC equipment packages, be they comms or radar, being tweaked to customer requirements, often by the local tels engineers.

Helen49,

Check your PMs please. Thankyou. ;)

I believe the 1980s Manchester radar mentioned in several posts above was a T4008.

ACR6 scanner with AR1 electronics.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3182/2...5297bfb8_m.jpg
Cossor ACR6 at Bournemouth Airport, 1979 before removal of the aerial to Stansted.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3124/2...9756a04f_m.jpg
The last Marconi 264 at Filton - now replaced with Marconi S511.

2 s

Mooncrest, Helen, spekesoftly, and canard,
I tried to post this earlier in one go, but it disappeared. So here goes:-.
The History Of Radar At EGCC. - A short trilogy, - in three parts.

In 1970, there were airfield-based 2 radars at Manch, a Cossor ACR6, and a Marconi S264H. Both were sited to the west of the present pier 'C', on the grass area now covered by the north end of the Air Livery hanger and the cargo sheds. The ACR6 was on a squat round concrete structure, (similar to that in the picture above from 2 Sheds), and the S264 was a large yellow/white cosecant-squared antenna.
Manchester also had PAR, and the caravan sites are still discernible on satellite/aerial photographs. The last ATCO with a PAR rating retired 2 years ago, although the facility was withdrawn in the 1970s.
During the 1970s, when PATCRU was in existence, (providing radar cover to support the procedural ATCC at Barton Hall), other radar data was available.
Clee Hill and St. Annes radar data was transmitted to Manchester via 2 parabolic reflector dishes on the tower roof, east of the original VCR. Clee Hill information came via Sutton Common and St Annes via Winter Hill microwave links. At this time the St Annes site was a Marconi 264A, but the original Clee equipment type is unknown to me.

To be continued....................

@ Zooker
Can't add much to the discussion as I only worked the 430 at Liverpool for 11 years (oh, & I had a Cadet Unit Endorsement for PATCRU ) but I was a Steeleye Span fan - I went to school with Tim Hart & his father christened my 3 boys ! Sad to say, Tim died on Xmas Eve in 2009 :{

I haven't flown from Manchester for years. Is the ACR6 still there, lurking behind the hangars ? I can just see the Watchman from the car park roof at Terminal 1. I think it used to be on the south side but had to make way for the second runway. I dare say moving that installation took some doing.

The History Of Radar at EGCC continues with the integration of Manchester Approach, PATCRU, Lindhome and the procedural ATC sectors at Barton Hall consolidated as Manchester Sub-Centre which opened on 29th january 1975.
The technical side is covered by Derek Henry in an article entitled 'Sub-Centre opening Memories' which is accessible on the NW Region page of the NAT/CAA RSA website.
By the early 1980s, the approach controllers, (SCMA 1 and 2), used the Marconi S264H and Plessey 4011 as their main radars. These were displayed on 2 16'' primary only flouride tubes.
By this time the S264H had been re-located to a site close to the present location of the MCT DVOR, and I believe the ariel was that from the car-park mounted installation from EGLL.
The 4011 was a combination of AR1 electronics, and the Cossor ACR6 head, and was located on a concrete tower just NE of the northern portal of the R/W06 road tunnel. In the mid/late 1980s a modification was carried out to the radar and it became the EN4000, with improved coverage, but stange square blips.
Both these were available for 2nm SRAs, with blips from the 264 almost half-a-mile wide. The 4011 was a great radar, and would give a huge return from a Guppy on a base or if Jodrell Bank was facing north.
Approach also had the use of primary and SSR data from the Clee Hill AR5, and St Annes 264A, on a 'plot-extracted' or, (in the case of St Annes), 'scan-converted' display. This display was used by No.1 director (119.4), for initial identification and sequence planning, No.2, using the primary displays for final vectoring/SRAs.
Approach could operate using the area radars alone, using en-route terrain-clearance criteria.
The area controllers had the use of Clee Hill and St Annes data and could toggle between the two, on horizontal 22" and vertical 16" displays.
Although no Decca 424 was present at EGCC, support was provided to the 424 director at EGGP via the LIV RAD position. This was usually carried out from the TMA West flat top display, using a shared frequency, 119.85, and involved identifying traffic to the 'GP 424 controller, or sequencing if the 424 was affected by clutter. It was a function carried out by both area and approach-rated controllers and dated from the days of NATS having the Liverpool ATC contract. When EGGP became 430 equipped, the task was more of a 'ident' service, as EGGP approach had much improved coverage.
To be concluded............

The Steeleye Span question arose from Mooncrest's ident. It was the label that their first two vinyl albums were released on. A great band, saw them twice at Loughborough students union.
Very saddened to hear about Tim Hart Eric.

Aha, now I understand the "Steeleye Span " query. My adoption of the "Mooncrest" moniker is from the record label of the same name but specifically from a copy of "Snoopy versus The Red Baron" by The Hotshots which I bought near EGCC.

It appears that many airfields were operating at least two radar heads simultaneously, one for general surveillance and one for SRAs until the early eighties at least. Reading between the lines it seems to have taken some years for Approach units generally to gain an SSR capability, albeit fed in from a remote NATS/CAA site. In fact, this is still the case at EGNM. Beats me why the then airport management didn't buy a complete primary and secondary Watchman package back in '89. How does EGCC provide an Approach Radar service when the Watchman is on maintenance, bearing in mind the primary and secondary heads are co-mounted ?

A question for you Zooker. What is a Mediator suite ? I've heard the word "Mediator" used in ATC circles several times but have never known what it meant. I always guessed it was something to do with the ATC telephone tie-line network but otherwise I haven't a clue.

As I understood it, (but I could be wrong), the 'Mediator Suite', - which sounds like a work by Vaughan-Williams, was the name of the furniture in use at Manchester and LATCC.
It usually comprised 2 horizontal radars, with the capability to accommodate 4 sector controllers (2 on each), A Chief Sector Controller (also known as a Crew-Chief or CSC), was in overall charge of the suite, and ATSAs manned the 'wings' or ends of each suite. A 'canopy' provided fittings for the lights, kept the smoke in the vicinity of the ATCOs and tall Chiefs could grab the canopy handles in times of crisis.
Some LATCC suites had positions for military bods too (Pole Hill did, - I think) and the TMA East suite at Manch had the approach controllers sitting next to the SE sector controller.
Each sector had its own suite, Daventry, Clacton, Dover/Lydd etc. If you find one in a museum, you can tell where it came from as the Manchester ones were dark green and the others, from LATCC and CATC were grey.
Sorry to hi-jack the 424 thread, all this should be filed under ATC History really.
Manchester can use Clee Hill and St Annes PRI/SSR data when the EGCC Watchman is U/S, but I believe they have to use 4000' initial altutude to comply with terrain clearance, and 5nm minimum separation instead of 3.
Please feel free to correct any of the above folks if it's wrong. I'll try and finish the EGCC radar thing this weekend.
.

A suite of a couple of splittable sectors each with two 22" flat-tops with suspended Flight Progress Boards separated by a Chief Sector Controller's comms panel, two or three long-range verticals and Assistant Sector Controller Flight Progress Boards on the outside (hence the term 'Wing-Men'). Eash ASC was flanked by an Assistant position. Seating in total for 9 ATS staff (1 CSC, 4 SCs, 2 ASCs, 2 ATSAs) not counting U/Ts. Very cosy when fully staffed...halitosis or smoking not welcome. Result: bad backs, twisted necks, colds and flu, twisted ankles from enmeshed chair castors, red and green felt tip on starched white shirts...etc etc... Alzheimer's permits recall of ten suites in all: POL/IRS, DTY/LIC, TMA(N,) CLN E/W, BRS/STU, 20/23, TMA(S), DVR/LYD, SFD/WOR/HUR, plus a Spare Mediator Suite. They are probably all saucepans or exhaust pipes by now.

Another recollection. The original 1970/71 flat-tops weren't, they were domed and the shrimp boats from the shrimp-boat dispensers would sail downhill into the ashtrays. Alphanumeric 4096 code Mode A SSR arrived just in time for Mediator opening night 31 Jan '71...

Aaah, shrimpboats and chinagraphs, a marriage made in .... but not on a vertical tube when wearing static-inducing, Bri-nylon!! :eek:

Now where's those metal strip holders and the Lamson tube gone? :}

Oops, sorry, must have been dreaming, but, oh what fun we used to have.

On the beach

<<Lamson tube gone?>>

Indeed, what fun... When I worked overseas we would pick up a couple of scorpions during the late night lighting check.. and pop them in a Lamson Tube. Normal reaction when one picks up a tube is to unlatch the end bit and shake it on your hand. Yep, worked every time!!!

Mooncrest

Mediator was the civilian part of the ATC system for Area Control in theU.K. (except Scottish FIR) which came into being in the late 1960's early 1970's. The military function was known as Linesman. The full title was unsurprisingly LInesman Mediator. The Linesman part fell out of usage and "the Thing" became known as Mediator, which has now sadly passed on.:D

Course I've encountered Lamson tubes; they were the things at Glasgow where the assistant could drop their pen, resulting in the system having to be dismantled to retrieve it.
At Farnborough, we had its predecessor, the Lamson Hoist. This was a set of rigid vertical wires carrying a metal slider which had a clip on which you clipped FPS, weather reports etc. operated by pulling on a handle which, if you didn't pull hard enough when sending messages to the VCR, didn't engage its stop and fell down on your head.
My overriding memory is of the test pilots of the then prototype Rockwell B1 paying us a visit; they couldn't believe the simplicity of the hoist and stood playing with it for hours!!

Wonderful Lamson tube system at Heathrow, with addressable collars read by some electromagnetic gismo which would change the "points" in the tubing, there being 4 or 5 possible addresses. Hours of fun sending tubes loaded with punchole confetti to the tower at very busy times....desktops covered with the stuff. System was maintained by two characters we called Tweedledee and Tweedledum who seemd to have a full time job clearing faults.

I think it was Derek Jenkins who told me a story about a cigar being put down a tube at Luton one Christmas.......

At Manch, several Lamson tubes came out of the ceiling to the FPRS assistants.
It was occasionally referred to as The Steamship Enterprise. One of the VCR ATSA would often ask for a bag of crisps from the 4th floor goody-box. The crisps would be reduced to granules and sent up the pipe.
Many supermarkets have modern 'Lamson' systems to take cash etc, from the checkout positions to the cash office.

Assistant at EGNX did the 'pen down the tube' thing in the late 60s and they nearly had to take the control tower building apart to find it.

Derek Jenkins..... now there's a name that brings back memories!!

Another place i worked was linked to the adjacent RAF Tower by Lamson Tube. RAF guy rang up one evening to scrounge some sugar.... which one of my colleagues helpfully tipped straight into the pipe without the tube. They also discovered that if you popped a boiled egg in the pipe, it went off like a bomb at the other end!

H D Congrats on 6000th you mention Jenks, now he was a top banana. They definately don't make 'em like that anymore.

We never did discover the rightful owner of a pair of lady's briefs which arrived via the Lamson Tubes in Heathrow Flight Clearance one nightshift back in the late '60s. Happy Times!
Now...back to the 424....

But just before we do. The only other bit of Decca kit I've been privileged to play with was the Decca roller map. The forerunner to Tomtoms. Same principle, but way before it's time. Endless hours of entertainment in the Daventry hold listening to the "Light Programme" or was it the "Home Service" :confused: and watching the pen scrawl all over the roller map.

roller map | map mk | decca roller | 1968 | 1 - 0078 | Flight Archive

p.s. Don't whatever you do, read the second ad down on the left. :=

On the beach,
On your link, the cover of 'Flight International' with the Skyvan was the first copy I ever bought! Still have it somewhere. :ok:

Zooker and others, thanks for the Mediator info. I just remember the then ATSM at EGNM a few years ago discussing the cost of telephone links with the Tels chief. He was saying something about "having the Mediator line to fall back on" if they couldn't allow a direct link.

As for the Decca 424, which is what this thread started with, I can't think of anything to else to say about it. It's certainly stirred up some strong feelings and reactgions in the ATC community. Thankyou everybody :ok:

Was it already mentioned Cambridge had one in the early 70s?
Mooncrest; there's mediator and there's Mediator. Mediator (aka Mediocre)was the ATS system used at LATCC whilst a 'mediator line' was/is a line on the Air Traffic Operational Telephone Network (ATOTN), a dial up system still in use today but often set up at ATC units as 'speed dials' so you think they're direct lines when they're not.

Chevron,

I can remember reading a book about Humberside Airport. There was quite a detailed ATC section and it mentioned something about the presence of PBXs at six regional locations. So I guess this is where the Mediator lines all "met". I don't know if this is still the case. When the tower at EGNM had the old RDCE gear external phone lines were accessed using old BT-style Autodial consoles, basically grey plastic boxes with yellow buttons. Sadly long since cast in the skips !



ZOOKER. Check your PMs please. Ta !

I did 6 half milers (with an OJTI on the ACR430) today for helicopters 'cloud breaking' at Staverton into Cheltenham Races. First ones I've done for nearly 4 years due to medical issues! Some even had a passing acquaintance with the centre line! Our radar guys have been frantically busy this week, with over 50 SRA's done in the last 3 days...great fun! (and they all got in)

Mats,

Is the ACR430 at Staverton actually in the guise of a MARIS radar ? I think I've read previously on here that it is.

Congratulations on your half-milers. It's been a long time since they were done at Yeadon.

Reminds me of a Farnborough Air Show before the airfield became civil licenced. I was rostered on at 10am, weather was grotty (no ILS in those days) arrived, sat straight on the PAR (Cossor CR62) and did 14 talkdowns without a break.

Mooncrest, Yes, it's a MARIS 900, which is a 430 antenna and turning gear with solid state heads, running on Windows NT network and 21" CRT monitors. I'll take some pictures next week and post them.

The big difference from the ACR430 is that you can actually see the aeroplanes on it, even when it's raining!

No-one would dare venture behind that black curtain to relieve you...

So, what do you do for a challenge now...

Aah, the good old 424, SRAs from memory! The feeling of relief and satisfaction when the customer landed. Didn't get that from the SLA3c!

I am a massive geek that regrets every day not applying to NATS (even managed to source a copy of David Graves UK ATC book that was getting rare to find at the time ready for my application - it just sits on my shelf reminding me about my failure to apply) and have to say I find threads like this fascinating for my little geekish brain. I have three questions that have been playing on my mind for years that I wonder about:

1) I understand primary and SSR radar and I know places like Gloucester/Southend (about to change?) use primary only radar and I know unless you have SSR and a Mode C readout you won't know the height of the target but is there some sort of limit based on the radar emitter power/beam angle (I take it approach radars are angled more towards the horizon compared to enroute?) that means that contacts above xx thousand feet are not going to show? Theres a scanner video on Youtube (search southend approach, talks about RIS so I know it is not new) where some contacts are reported "unknown high speed traffic...(range/bearing)...level unknown" - could this be just as likely to be an overflying flight at FL360 in the airways as much as it could be a fast moving military A/C or will the radar not pick up contacts that high being a non-enroute radar?

2) Say you have an airways leaver going to Gloucester or Oxford and they leave airway CAS and are given some sort of TS/DS outside CAS by swanwick, I understand that part of the radar processing uses some sort of 'height filters' in the enroute sector so it does not clutter the radar with people flying over the top (?) or below. Do these filters get turned off when providing a service outside CAS and you get all primary returns and non-filtered SSR traffic to advise/deconflict with the airways leaver?

3) Do you have to be a licenced airfield to provide radar? I thought you would but it looks like Lasham (from the start of this thread) has some sort of radar...is it just a case of getting permission from Ofcom or whoever to operate in that frequency range and away you go...I always thought to provide a radar service you had to provide an ATC service and to provide ATC you needed to be licenced or am I hopelessly wrong on this one aswell.

Thanks for any answers - they will just satisfy some curiosity going around my brain!

almostyearly:

2) Swanwick don't provide ATC outside controlled airspace; Gloucester or Oxford inbounds might work Brize Radar on the rare occasions they open nowadays and I believe Oxford have their own radar now, so they may well cut out the middleman; certainly in the days I used to do Farnborough LARS, pilots preferred to stay with me even when I offered a handover to Brize.

No. It's not connected. Aerodrome licensing is to protect users of Public Transport. The ANO requires that, in the United Kingdom, most flights for the public transport of passengers take place at a licensed aerodrome, or at a Government aerodrome. See CAP168. ATC is not a pre-requisite. FISO and, under some circumstances, AGCS is adequate. For minimum facilities see CAP393 Section 3 Page 8.

Decca (latterly Plessey) 424 Approach Surveillance Primary Radar. It is a private facility operated by an aircraft maintenance and repair organisation for its own purposes (non-public transport) and is licensed by the CAA. Service provision includes Traffic Service and Surveillance Radar Approach provided by CAA-licensed ATCOs. The radar has a narrow pencil beam. Traffic detection is dependent on the manual positioning of the beam therefore it is not suitable for Deconfliction Service. (The radar aerial Polar Diagram would have to be cosecant-squared or similar to ensure 'solid cover' with the additional disadvantage of detection of high-level overflights.)

Provision of a radar service outside CAS is part of what is known as ATSOCA (See CAP774). Where provided by civilian licensed ATCOs it is provided in accordance with CAP493 and is subject to CAA audit.