Link repeated here (to satisfy the ten character posting requirement!). Perhaps the 'sort of periscope' in the film might jog Gordon's memory...

A great film ! Just for a moment I thought the commentator was Harold Wilson, doing a spot of moonlighting from his 1963 Labour Party Conference speech about the white heat of technology etc. :8

Hello Gordon. Good to hear from an ex LBA Managing Director. I seem to recall reading about your ATC heritage in one of my books and your personal recollections on this site make interesting reading.

I only recently found out about the 424 when I saw it behind a BKS748 in an old LBA pic. Considering I thought the ACR430 was LBA's first radar I was equally surprised to find that the 424 was itself preceded by the EKCO ARAA. Your description of it mounted on the old rudimentary control tower sounds about right. I think you can make it out on some of the old black and white pictures from that era. Unfortunately I don't have the means to put them on here.

Do you remember roughly when the 424 was superseded by the 430 ? I'm now aged 41 and can remember back to around 1973 and the sight of the 430 whirling round in "talkdown" mode is fixed firmly in my mind !

Nice to see plenty of (mainly) fond recollections of old radar equipment from everybody, not just the Decca and Plessey machines but Marconi as well.
And those Corgi models of the 424 are the last word in cool. I must keep an eye on ebay.

I may be wrong but I don't think the 430 was made until after 1973. I can remember using one at Larkhill (Salisbury Plain Range Control) in 1975 and it was brand new, one of the first.

According to This Link Norwich Airport installed an ACR430 in 1970:-

Some interesting history here

And a sales (?) brochure for the 430 here

Table 1 in the 430 document would have been good fodder for JT to expound at the College :)

I have never personally worked with either a 424 or a 430 but remember watching Hurn Approach working with their 430 and flying several half-milers to 17 (also Hurn) whilst doing my instrument flying intro in a 152 - in fact it was under the hood right down to the flare as my Instructor carried on the patter once the SRA was terminated.

DD

The son of 430 lives on at Gloucestershire (aka Staverton), does just about everything that the old 430 couldn't, including the ability to have SSR overlayed.


Still a 3CM radar, but light years ahead of its 424 grandad.

Norwich certainly did have the first operational ACR430 - and a dire piece of kit it was too. To say the least, it was extremely hard work for something that was marketed as a pukka surveillance radar (i.e. not just for one-at-a-time SRAs as was the 424). Word obviously had not got around by 1979 as Bournemouth Airport then bought one to replace the ACRVI that the then-CAA took with them at the end of their ATC contract. Fortunately, the excellent IAL engineers were able to improve it such that it did sterling service throughout the 1980s.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7068/6...d5582817_m.jpg http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2342/2...794ebf39_m.jpg

2 s

One of our guys will be validating on the 430 today, complete with a half miler. It's now a 'MARIS 900' with solid state transceivers and running on a Windows PC display. We had a fault last week, but a replaced modulator board and some tweaking to the triggering, courtesy of Dr Ken Collier of MARIS, has resolved that. Whilst putting it back into service, we checked some targets with Brize and could see traffic in the airway, 20 miles south at F220!

Aren't Lasham going to upgrade the 424 to a 430/Maris? I gave them our old Kelvin Hughes tubes because I couldn't bear to put them in the skip!

Awaiting developments...

Windows!!!

Fascinating to read about the history of the Decca and Plessey radars and the trials and tribulations of those people who used to work with them (or perhaps still do !)

The same phrase keeps recurring regarding the 424, i.e. "pencil beam" which I surmise means great for talkdowns (practice permitting) but not much use for general surveillance. I don't know how well the LBA 424 performed but I gather the 430 was a reasonable performer for its day, following rewiring and mods by the local Tels team. Still never found out where it ended up post- LBA though but at least the 424 made it to Brough, at least.

By the way, did Blackpool ever use a 424 ? Last time I was there (1997) I remember seeing the radar head and I vaguely recall it resembling a 424. However I also recall one of the controllers saying it was a Plessey machine so I'm not sure. It used green monochrome displays though.

Who, or what, are these MARIS folks ? Do they specialise in breathing new life into old technology ?_

Maris have developed a variety of mods and upgrades for pre-loved radars, including the 430 and, more recently Marconi 511s. They provide and maintain kit all around the world, including a number of UK military weapons ranges. Ken Collier is the main man and is a genius. What he doesn't know about radar isn't worth knowing.

Our man passed today :D

No 'perhaps'. Definitely..

Interesting bit in Tchocky's link:

The pencil beam is very thin. Nowadays this necessitates (or should necessitate...) re-ident...
It's a horrible feeling when that blip disappears with a ULE examiner standing behind. Bit difficult to explain to him that one gets used to vectoring 'parcels of thin air'..."don't worry, it'll re-appear" is no longer acceptable!
If there are two blips in the beam they could be somewhat close...
If there are two raindrops in the beam you might as well go home...it's a great weather radar!
It's also fine in CAVOK...when the crews don't need radar...

But you predicted it:

I always found that putting a finger on the screen to help keep track of the target was a great technique. Finger much bigger than blip.

Yes.

I used to use my third hand and a yellow china graph for that. Great for seeing what a lousy SRA you'd just done. I haven't found a use for my third hand since I retired. Any suggestions? :=

On the beach

The SLA-1 (3cm PAR) needed more hands than three.
There were two tubes, one for elevation one for azimuth. On each tube you had two buttons for servos (up/down and left/right) and a two way self centring switch for gain control.
With your remaining hand you wrote down the headings with a chinagraph!

@ On the Beach
These'll be familiar then :)

Chinagraphs.jpg picture by oldbloke60 - Photobucket

Still in daily use after 40+ years - only trouble is that I can't get yellow refills now so stuck with black !

ETC...is that your version of EFD? ;-)

Stick with the Chinagraphs Eric, you know it makes sense!

Watch out Zooker.... one of BDiONU's mates will be after you!!

I think that's already happened Bren!

Decca 424
 

My first radar validation, on the 424, was in early 1970. Despite its quirks we used it to its “maximum” . At the board I was asked how many aircraft I would control at a time, I replied “one”, the examiner just grinned! It was always suggested that our “tels guys” altered the waveguide a little!
We often operated as a twosome , as we did with the later 430 ( we were one of the first civil users of that, it came to us with no map overlay, our engineers invented one) .
One controller vectoring on the left and on the right the half mile SRA tube. In between was the control panel with tilt switch and tuners. You’ve probably guessed the unit, about a mile and a half west there was a ridge by the M1 motorway producing a very noticeable collection of PEs.
I can remember pushing the tilt down while in the left hand seat to see inbound traffic for vectoring and receiving a very bruised right hand as the controller on the right was trying to tilt up to see his blip pass the PEs at about a mile and a half on 08. Also that was where invariably there was a marked change in drift! Good memories and always a satisfaction of completing many many “ half milers” in marginal conditions JB

This is starting to sound like the Springfield Retirement Castle! Hi JB, good to see you around again. As you say...
which is a pretty poor way of marketing a surveillance radar. Hence, on the HH 430:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7202/6...5f0291fa_m.jpg
the airspace in reverse chinagraph on the perspex overlay.

2 s

LBA ACR430
 

I probably have piccies somewhere that could identify the date of the LBA ACR 430 installation. My guess would be very early 70's. I was the Airport Ops Officer at the time. Plessey undertook the actual installation but underestimated the unpredictability of LBA. The radar head was destined for the centre of the airfield near to the 424 slte, but the first mobile crane that tried to transport it simply sank as soon as it left runway 28. The contractor brought in a larger crane, which managed to move only a little further before also bogging down. We then arranged for several loads of hardcore to be deposited on the track and rolled it in. The contractor brought in the largest crane available and the ACR430 eventually reached it's destination. I am certain to have piccies of this performance but have reached the stage of life where I have no idea where I put my glasses a few minutes since, let alone the location of photographs taken some 40 years ago !

Regards.

Gordon, you'll not be surprised to hear that LBA is still a swamp in certain locations. A few years ago after a spell of torrential rain there was a river crossing the 32 threshold which had its source on Horsforth Golf Course. I don't recall anything landing that evening.

I assume the 430 was a brand new installation then. I was always under the impression that it had been purchased second-hand from Luton but I confess I don't know where I got that idea. The installation farce sounds like a Keystone Cops scenario. These days there'd be risk assessments, hard hats, hi viz, clipboards and so on in order to prevent all that nonsense, not to mention all the fun.

What made LBA choose the 430 over, say,the Marconi 264 ? I guess the 424 was proving not too satisfactory for general surveillance but ok for SRAs. Thinking about the soft ground at LBA, the 264 radar head could well have sunk altogether :sad:

We had the 430 at Luton into the mid 80s but finally the scanner and associated electronics caught fire, not sure of the exact date, and it "ceased to be". At that time the 08 ILS was being installed so it obviously felt unwanted.....

Living in Luton, I know the feeling
 

Serious question, was the Watchman the sucess that it is made out to be......

Luton didn't have a Watchman, they had (and I believe it's still there) an ex RAF AR15, which apparently won't interface with the display system at LTCC so it's still as they left it when they moved radar to Terminal Control.
Wonder what became of the AR15 which used to be mounted on the control tower at Dunsfold.

Luton AR15
 

Realising early the shortcomings of the 430 Luton investigated a "proper" surveillance radar in the mid 70s. We became an early civil purchaser of the AR15. The RAF had experienced coverage problems with the AR15 which I think were down to their own siting decisions, we left our siting to Plessey.It was marketed as a superior AR1. I think it became operational about 1977 with SSR feed from Heathrow ( we had SSR before Gatwick ) I consider the whole package very good for its time, excellently maintained by our Tels staff. JB

Luton AR15
 

Hi chevrron
for info I think the AR15 was purchased new from Plessey, although may have been a cancelled Middle East order. JB

I stand corrected; someone told me when we were starting LARS North that the Luton AR15 couldn't be used (would have been perfect) but they thought it was ex-RAF. Couldn't have been RB could it?
I know the Dunsfold one was ex Brize, (maybe that's where I'm getting confused) There was some sort of 'scandal' about it too; apparently bits were 'missing' when the packing cases were opened at Dunsfold and they had been there when it was packed at Brize.

Yes, the Luton AR15 was new. I held the first (might have been the second) UK AR15 validation. Before that we had a temporary Cossor 787, scanner mounted on a truck, display in the radar room in the old control tower. I validated that too. :)

The ACR430 melted down (literary, the box of tricks below the scanner) a few months after Chernobyl. I am not sure if there was a connection. :confused:

The AR15 displays were removed about a year before Approach moved to LATCC.

The scanner was only removed in December last year.

So which airfields used the Decca 424 ? The ones I now know for definite are Leeds Bradford, Birmingham, East Midlands, Hawarden, Liverpool and Blackpool. And latterly, Lasham.

Is that a Plessey AR15 I saw at Bournemouth about eight years ago ? I always thought it was a Watchman but the head didn't seem to be the right shape.

Luton had a 424 in the late 60s before getting the 430. I regret never having a go on it.

Numerous RAF airfields had the ACR7(424). Lindholme was one, possibly as late as 1972, Topcliffe was another; I saw one there in '71.
RAE Bedford had one too, maybe also A & AEE Boscombe Down but Farnborough didn't.

Southampton had one in the eighties. Don't know when they bought it but they advertised in Flight, as you do, to buy one in 1965 along with an ILS(see small ad top left under ground equipment).

Some other interesting ads also. Anyone fancy becoming an ATCO, max salary up to £2,036, and if you have previous aircrew or ATCO experience the Min of Aviation would consider you for training up to 40 years of age. :D

I would have quite fancied replying to the ad for a co-pilot wanted for round trip to Cape Town in well equipped light aircraft.

They don't make ads like those, these days.

1965 | 1454 | Flight Archive

On the beach

Didn't the 424 from Luton go on to Southend?

On the beach

Southampton bought their 424 new. Spent many happy hours doing 150 exercises before taking my radar rating. Said goodbye to it in 1971 only to find it still going (albeit with new displays) when I came back to the UK in 1987.

Finally withdrawn early nineties when the ILS came into service. Nobody wanted what was left, believe that the displays went for a song to Westlands at Yeovil.

PS add Yeovil and Leavesden to the list of users.