So what has changed? I've been flying around Europe for years, 90% of the time on direct tracks, always checking weight/wind/temps/weather and requesting flight levels accordingly, and most of the time I got what I requested. Sometimes I would have to change level later on due to traffic in another sector, but not often.
Total traffic is down after the economical crisis, but the service from ATC has gotten worse. I really hope this is because of some sort of industrial action as in Spain, but the French are doing the same, and now ATC are going to have a Flight Plan & ATFCM Adherence campaign in Europe???
Thanks a bundle, that will really help! Do I have to declare emergency in order to get a climb above weather/turbulence?
Average CFMU taxi times? So our knowledge of different airport does not count? Taxi time can vary by 10-15 minutes depending on parking position and runway in use. It is my responsibility to reach the runway according to slot, and I have to suffer the consequenses if I don't get there in time. It's not for ATC to tell me I can't get there in time when I'm ready to push 15-20 minutes before my slot!
I would also like to point out the obvious, there is a world of difference between ATC in UK and Maastrich, and ATC "further south". The latter being the ones that frustrate me the most.
The thing is, North European ATC should set the standard for the other ATC units, not the other way around!

Do they have CTOTs in the USA?

Drex,

About Italy:

Us: Any chance direct GOTAR?
Padova ATC: What would be your track?
Us:104
Padova: OK cleared direct GOTAR, and we'll cordinate later...

ATC: FCO 16L in use.
Us: Any chance for 16R
ATC Sby.. (about 10 secs later) OK 16R approved (saved around 10 mins taxi time)

I always had the feeling that in Italy, everything is chaotic, BUT everything seems to work. I had the feeling that if something was rejected, there was always a reason.

Madrid: clear weather, no aircraft on RWY 33L, we were on 18NM final for 33R. Any chance for the other RWY? Instant reply NO! This answer costs our company around 20 extra mins taxi, which is around at least 200 kg fuel. We fly as well to VLC, BCN, PMI and a few other places but I have never seen so amateur controlling as in MAD (Spanish level 4 is min required, 5 and 6 reccomended in order to operate there safely)

We have allowed ATC to become masters rather than servants; rather like most governments these days.

Perhaps those controllers, particularly 10W, tempted to defend their colleagues from the South should try to get a jump seat ride on any flight in and out of Spain particularly Madrid. I know you don't get this now as duty time and have to arrange during a day off but believe me it will open your eyes. Come along for the ride and share in the frustration then try to defend a system no longer able to serve it's customers. Experience what a fully qualified 300,000 plus Euro Controller in Madrid deems a professional and competent service, believe me you will not defend them afterwards.

Excellent idea and 'freeflight' has been worked upon for many years. Unfortunately the technology isn't quite there yet to provide sufficient safety assurance for it to work correctly 100% of the time.
A fortune? I wish! :-) However there are many reasons for those small corridors, not the least of which is the small tarmac bits the planes have to land on. If only the pilots could land anywhere there wouldn't be much need for ATC.
Ah yes, like in yea olde days when aircraft followed rail lines, roads etc. and had a habit of smacking into each other, hence the introduction of the rule of the Right?
No sh1t Sherlock! You win a big cigar and should o to the top of the class :-)

A monopoly, hhhmmm not in the UK.
Hhhmm, you're obviously not involved in the airline business in UK. If we don't respond to our customers changing priorities we get hit with penalties by our regulator. It would be true to say that ATC in UK, in particular the largest ANSP NATS, are generally one step ahead of their customers, it makes business sense.
I don't know, ask me a question on sport please :-)

BD

I do hear those arguments quite a lot. From our passengers every time we flightcrews threaten to go on strike during the usual contract negotiation phase. I know it doesn't apply you directly as corporate pilots usually don't need to use those crude instruments, but for airline crews those arguments should be all too familiar, just directed at us.

The question about quality of service in general is something alltogether different though, and after having flown alternately to greece and spain in the last few months i have to say spain is fine compared to greece imo, really awful service and equipment status there.

10W

Thank you for your reply to my post back on page 1. I agree totally with what you say and having worked for several years in airline operations and specifically ATC slots, I can just about remember some of the published taxi times for the various airfields (not many though). This gives me a good understanding now as to whether the Palma controller that day was being sensible or making a statement. I assure you without any doubt that it was the latter. It wasn't just us but several aircraft at the same time that were being denied pushback clearance literally because of a minute or two past EOBT.

For us, we were on the north side of the ramp, so we were close to the departure runway 24R. The 15 mins at Palma is designed to allow sufficient time for aircraft to taxi from the southwest side to 24R. There were no aircraft at the time at the holding point. We called for push and start at CTOT -10, so yes effectively 5 minutes after EOBT but 20 minutes prior to the slot expiry.

We must remember that the -5/+10 is not ours but the tool of the controller. However, aircraft turnarounds are far from an exact science and do need some flexibility where possible. This was neither and seems very unlikely to have any positive outcome for anyone.

I wish the controllers the best in settling their dispute but lets have some common sense.

B&B

Ancient Priviledges and Reality Checks...
 

As members of state run organizations, Spanish and French ATC employees/ATCOs just naturally try to avoid by all means the erosion of their ancient priviledges by a far distant threat called single European sky. While again making every airlines/pilots and passengers life difficult these days, the costs imposed by those "strikes" are tremendous for all of us. Be it legacy , low cost or corporate carriers, we should take a united way of legal action and get our money back from those lacy and arrogant ATC clowns in Spain and France. No adequate service, no fees, period.
Diversion due to curfew at home base because of "capacity" induced delays, Pax and crew HOTAC, aircraft unavailable for next day rotations ? Send them the bill, the sooner we start, the better...

F.I.

To go a step further: make Eurocontrol pay for any "flow control delay" wich they cannot prove true and the losses made due to the "ash-cloud-theatre", They ask enough for their "service"....

The UK ANSP NATS already has a regime, imposed by the UK government, which imposes penalties for delay which are NATS 'fault'.

BD

I am not too familiar with the stakes with Spanish ATCOs. However French ATCOs, I know more about :ugh:

The reason they're carrying this action at the moment (a strike with no name as there is nothing official - how bold of them !!! They still get paid for buzzing those very people feeding them) is that they now have to sign in.

YES how can you expect from anyone to sign in at work ! This is slavery at work. And the reason signing in is such a disgrace to their eyes is that they used to surf on a system whereby people were simply called off from work during less dense trafic periods. Which means these people used to stay home but were still counted as active, working staff : getting paid for not working. How about that !!! This is called the "clearance" system, i.e. forget about coming to work today, you're cleared to dabble in all sorts of leisure activities, doing f...hole...

Now, the fact they have to sign in with their own ID card and not just waiving at the team as before means they have to take this "work method" out of their life style.

Their argument is "if you want to abide by the rules (i.e. signing in) so will we. All standard, no fuss, no search for improved flight tracks or flight levels. Nothing. All by the charts, obviously forgetting that speeding traffic flows is a hard part of their duty.

Now you know why you're airline is wasting so much money in France for these drama queens.

Flow, Eobt, Ctot ...
 

From an ATC:

If Flight Plan has NO SLOT (IFR):
-the flight CAN NOT take-off before its EOBT (Estimated Off-Blocks TIme) (if your EOBT is 1000 you can be airborne at 1000 but not before)
- at EOBT + 15 minutes the Flight Plan is over, if you call for clearance after this time you will have to update your FPL
-at EOBT + 45 minutes the Flight is suspended automatically from Brussels (this causes many problems for ATC too)
-you may NOT request READY message, this only applies when you have a SLOT

If Flight Plan has a SLOT (IFR):
-pilot mus call at least X minutes before the SLOT for start up (X=taxitime, in LEPA it's normally 15 minutes)
-the range -5, +10 is for ATC use only (sequence at the holding point). The pilot should not demand the use of this from his stand. for example: SLOT 1015, if you call ATC at 1000 for start up and taxi for 15 minutes, you will reach holding point at 1015, if you are number 5, ATC uses the +10; however if you have SLOT at 1015 and you call at 1010 for start up and taxi for 15 minutes you arrive at holding point at 1025 and you are number 5, you will take off late
-if fully ready before your SLOT - 15 min , you may request READY message, ATC will file the message only if traffic permits (If there are too many departures, sending READY messages will only delay a greater number of aircraft waiting at the holding point)

I wanted to explain this because I hear many discussions with pilots on the frequency every day. When we request a pilot to update his FPL it is because we know he won't make it in time. On the other hand, if there is not much traffic and we can help out we will try to avoid this situation.

I hope you find this helpful........ :ok:

---------------------------------------------------
FROM WHITE CUCUMBER:
"You may want to have a look at the Spanish AIP.

Spanish AIP (ENR 1.10-17)

"To acquire the appropriate data coherence and consistency
of traffic demand, which allow an optimum application
of airspace capacity and flow control measures,
even if the EOBT may be advanced in 15 minutes, take
off shall not be permitted before the EOBT. (The Taxi-time
can never be negative)."

Does it make any sense? I don't think so, but it is the law. "

Critical Situation In Spanish Sky
 

AENA (spanish airports and air navigation) and with the support of the spanish gov has developed several attacks to the ATCs for the last year, including the express services, in which you are forced to go to work within an hour or being fired if you reject it in your rest days.

In the last months the number of air traffic controllers with anxiety, depression and other diseases linked with job has raised by 4. Reasons for that worrying fatcs are, for example, the reduction of 40% of the staff every day to manage the same amount of air traffic; the increase of air incidents in more than 100% comparing with the last year. Personal licences granted for general workers like reduction of hours of work to take care little children are denied "for the general interest" !! .

And talking about SID, STARS, etc ... in last months in the spanish ACCs the maximum capacity on the sectors has been exceeded in more than 25% in a constant way and when the ATCs complained about that, AENA said the reason was the way of working of the ATCs due to the directs and changes of FL requested for the pilot and approved by the atc. So we took the decision of following the rules of Eurocontrol, when says:


Why is there a problem ?

EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherencehttp://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/d...ent/spacer.gif When investigating those occurrences in most cases it is found that the additional flights entered the concerned sector as a result of: http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/d...ent/spacer.gif ul.firstlevelbulletlist, ul.secondlevelbulletlist {list-style-image:url(/gallery/design/content/square02.gif);} .firstlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 30px} .secondlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 20px}

• not flying at the initial requested flight level (RFL); or,
• departing at times different from the original estimated off block time (EOBT) or calculated take off time (CTOT); or,
• arriving in the sector earlier or later than originally planned; or,
• deviating from their original planned route; often direct routeing (DCT).

http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/d...ent/spacer.gif http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/d...ent/spacer.gif http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/d...ent/spacer.gif In 35% of all ATFCM reported over-deliveries during 2008, the actual FL was different to the RFL in the Flight Plan. The network impact of this over-delivery can result in: http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/d...ent/spacer.gif ul.firstlevelbulletlist, ul.secondlevelbulletlist {list-style-image:url(/gallery/design/content/square02.gif);} .firstlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 30px} .secondlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 20px}

• wasted capacity in some sectors,
• potentially excessive workload,
• an overall lack of confidence in the accuracy of forecast traffic counts,
• protective capacity reduction,
• increased workload, stress or working conditions such that the ability of ATC controller may be significantly impaired and thus a safety issue.

Spanish ATCs enjoy working in a flexible way trying to do their best for the pilots and companies (our customers), but nowadays the situation in Spain in really critical and we are only trying to defend our basic rights as workers and as proffesionals of the air industry. We do hope the rest of european colleages ( pilots and controllers ) know our situation and understand the decisions AENA force us to take. And, of course we do hope you don´t suffer the same mobbing we are facing to in a so-called democratic country.


Greetings and enjoy your flight, ;)

Give it a whirl. Chuck in a bit of weather, some military exercises. A Pan call. I'm sure there is some budding Bill Gates out there who will write the computer programme that will cover every conceivable scenario, in all languages.
It should tie in nicely with the software with all aircraft types, and then pilots and controllers can retire to the beach, with drinks in hand, and watch it all go like clockwork.
How good will that be for the airlines and ANSPs managers. $2 airfares for everyone, selfserve inflight service. No need for flight attendants as they will never need to evacuate aircraft, because nothing could possibly go wrong, no-one would ever play up in flight.
I think John Lennon wrote a song about this.

Vampiro.....

I couldnt disagree with you more.

In Madrid you guys always put SO much effort into vectoring non spanish aircraft to allow spanish aircraft to jump the queue! if you used those skills with your general controlling, the flow rates would improve massively.

Example - "turn right by 90 degrees, slow down from 300 to 220" - why, to allow a spanair who is 12 miles behind us to be number one! The funny thing was that he then screwed up his landing on 33L and rolled to the end whereas we landed and took first turning and ended up on taxiway ahead of him!!! :ok:

How does the rest of europe manage? I was at the hold for 36R a few days ago - for other readers, Madrid has 2 parallel runways JUST FOR DEPARTURES - and the departure rate for BOTH runways combined was 1 per 3 minutes!!!!

Of course there were 8 aircraft waiting at the hold and you claim to be efficient???

Everyday we are told to give way to Spanish aircraft, even if we have right of way. Its embarrassing at times.

We are given clearance to pushback when there are aircraft behind us, no thought or looking out of windows by controllers.

Deconfliction on the ground and in the air is given in spanish even when it involves an english aircraft.

And you have the audacity to say For me and all my colleagues, the ATC in Madrid is a joke, a sad one at that.

No respect for you guys whatsoever.

Here, here!!
 

I totally agree............

Just Yesterday in MAD

Scheduled departure 14.55, slot of 15.50. we called for clearance at 14.50 and requested a ready message being send. No luck. Due to long taxitime to 36R, we started calling for startup several times around 15.20. No luck, finally received startup at around 15.30. Arrived at 36R at 15.50 number 8 in line!!!!! requested clarification whether we were gonna make it from ATC. Took two times before they understood the question and the finally came back that we had to contact company to arrange a new slot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

We were flabbergasted. Told ATC quiet forcefully that it was their mistake and their responsibility to solve. Meanwhile, in the line several of the other planes started to make comments like "welcome to Madrid" and "ATC is a joke here" and so on. Ryanair found out he had the same problem and had to contact company to arrange a new slot. He was less than amused as well.

Don't know what finally happened (like to think it was my forcefull voice :)) but ATC got a spanish A/C in front of us out of the way and we left right on the hour.

What a joke though

Isn't there alot of weather between 300 and 400 this summer on the airways of Northern Europe?

:E

There seem to be so many anomolies with "flow management".

Here are some examples going to Ciampino today - filed FL 350 - requested FL370 with French but not available due "flow etc". Soon as we call Swiss we are asked if we are able to climb to FL 370 to assist with separation! They also gave us a direct to TOP.

CTOT ex Ciampino 1012 - call for push and start at 0957 (CTOT - 15 mins) - told to standby (one other a/c about to taxi ahead of us). After 5 mins remind ATC we are standing by for push "yes I know standby!) - we finally get cleared push at 1007 (5 mins to slot). Taxi to hold point, one a/c ahead and he is cleared for take off. This was slower a/c on same routing. We are then held for over five minuted and eventually get airborne at CTOT at 11 mins!!

On the way back we are filed at FL360 - we request FL 380 and were granted this for the whole cruise until descent.

Sorry but please don't kid me into thinking that the action in Spain and France is due to "flow management" - absolute bollox!

Fireflybob : and then :
Sorry , not trying to excuse the Spanish or French Controllers actions here, but why are you systematically requesting differently as you file ? Surely you can make sure both are correct, a simple quick CHG message would take care of this and avoid frustrations later on.

ATC Watcher - I take your point but the company files the requested level and we are often not in a position to determine the ideal Flight Level until we are in possession of the loadsheet (a few mins prior to departure). Planned weight can vary due to differing passengers loads to what is expected, decisions which are made on the amount of fuel to "tanker" (this is affected by landing conditions on shorter runways and such issues as "non environmental icing"), whether any CAT is forecast etc.

If we file for the higher level and then advise ATC that we are unable because we are too heavy and/or turbulence forecast then this isn't too popular, I guess! So the safest thing (especially given all the latest nonsense in Spain) is to file the lower level but ask for higher on those occasions where we can fly higher.

Perhaps you can tell me - if I ask ATC to send a change a few minutes before pushback is this likely to affect the CTOT? (I suspect it would so and therefore incur a possible delay).

As a pilot I will tell you that there are just two many variables for me (or any other crew) to predict the precise FL they would ideally like to fly at.

With the company I fly with having several hundred movements a day across Europe how would the system cope with many CHG requests on the flight plan. Operationally we have to strike a balance between mitigating delays as opposed to achieving an ideal level - one of the reasons why we carry contingency fuel.

Surely any good ATC system should have a degree of flexibilty?

Fireflybob, point taken.
Now , I do not fly large jets at high altitudes, but in my unpressurized single engine aircraft , to fly 1000 or even 2000 ft below my (hand) calculated optimum does not make much difference economically, if any .(unless the wind is different at those altitudes of course )
I suppose you are flying a 320 or a 737 NG, so using same or similar engines.

For the sake of the argument :
The average commercial flight duration in Europe in 2009 was slighlty over one hour flight time. The cruising part of that flight is roughly 1/3 , so say 20to 30 min .
Can you look in your charts and tell me what difference there is between cruising at 350 and 370 for 20 min , and give me the % of the economy obtained , compared to the total costs of the flight. ? My point is : aren't we chasing optimum FLs just because a computer says it is more economical , but by what fraction ? Is this really worth all that R/T and frustration ?

The older generation of pilots and controlelrs were taught always to ask and deliver requesting high altitudes because with the engines then , a Trident , a Caravelle or a Bac1-11 , stuck at a lower altitude would be exteremely penalizing .But is that really so with a CFM56 ?
Also would a flight arriving on time flown 2000ft below optimum be more economic for your airline, that one getting, say 5 min delay but flying at optimum, altitude ?

ATC Watcher, on the EMB 195 the penalty for flying 2000' lower is somewhere between 200 and 300kgs, obviously dependant on route length.

The latest price per tonne of fuel I have is about £450. So on a 2 sector trip you're looking at about £300 saving for an extra 2000' higher (ish!) and that's one aeroplane on one route. For the whole fleet that would be in the order of several thousand pounds lost or gained in a single day.

Every little helps:ok:

:ok::D:D:D

Two days ago, from Ibiza to London, FPL filed all the way on FL380. After 40 min (!!!) and lots of step climbs we reached 380. On the hand over to the next Madrid sector we were demanded to descent to FL360. Tried to argue with no success. 10 min later hand over to Bordeaux and we were cleared back to FL380 "as on FPL". Result: 120kg of fuel in the rubbish bin.
And I didn't see any aircraft near us on FL380 that could justify a level change. It's a bunch of amateurs taking care of serious business.
My only hope nowadays is my roster sending me to scandinavia and central and eastern europe...

I don't think that this sort of difference in FPL v RFL is the sort of thing the eurocontrol document is aimed at. Its more when the orginal filed level is say FL290 and the requested level is FL370. Thats the sort of difference that we should be trying to get rid of. If your ops dept files at one level because of a flow restriction they should tell you what and where the restrcition is.

For example we had one filed at FL330 wanting FL390 the other day. Now this change in level took it into MAAS Delta High as opposed to the Delta Low so we had a look and after asking flow we found the restriction was over Germany. Delta High happily took it because they were going to descend the aircraft prior to the german border. Being flexible within the system is possible if the right information is known.

Cut the Crap!
 

If you need higher for weather, request it! If it is not given because the spanish are being unhelpful , TELL the passengers the reason they are all being thrown around is due to spanish ATC conflict, or Marseille ATC or Paris ATC or national strike day etc .
Look after the Aircraft, the Passengers and your crew! Be Honest with the passengers who knows you may be carrying a journalist or a politician.

Hi!

as this looks more to me as an ATC Issue than Rumours & News, maybe you could give a look at the appropiate forum:

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ion-spain.html


I think you will find useful information there.


Saludos!

I know that the Spanish controllers have some dispute with AENA which is why no shortcuts are given at present, for the last week or two, the French, particularly Brest, seem to be doing the same. Are you also in dispute? or is there some other reason.
Often now you fly the whole SID and airways route from Southern Spain to UK, the first direct routing is given from LATCC.
Airline management should be putting pressure on Control management to solve their differences with their employees as this policy is wasting time, money, fuel, and causing more CO2/ pollution.
We pay considerable navigation charges for an efficient service and are being made to suffer because ATC management cannot keep their staff happy.

Buen servicio
 

We actually received several surprise Directs from ATC today inbound MAD, plus good speed control on Final from the APP/FINAL controllers.....so, there is hope :) . Please keep it up MAD ATC, we love you really ;).

Problem is that AENA management couldn't care less that we are flying routes 'by the book'. Our colleagues in ATC need to realise this and to understand that their target for this action is very much misplaced. No one even knows what's going on with this 'unhelpfulness' except us so how can it ever benefit the cause. As for what it's got to do with the French controllers I don't know. All in all a very sad state of affairs for two sets of professionals in this industry.

night stop .. perhaps you are spanish...what a surprise!

Chesty morgan :
I am not familiar with the EMB195 but I doubt very much your figures, if 20 min at 2000ft below optimum = 200 Kg that would be 10Kg/min ???? Common !!
Look afain your charts, I think you got a zero wrong somewhere.

ATC Watcher, the point is that if we save (say) 50-100 kgs for every flight that's a hell of a lot of fuel when multiplied over hundreds of movements a day over the course of a year! I look at things from a fairly simple point of view (!) but I dont think it's so much the % but how much fuel that can be saved over a year - that's a lot of dosh! Part of my remit as a professional pilot is to operate as economically as possible. Why is it a lot of RT to say "Request FL XXX" (mind you the way some pilots ask for a level change - well thats another matter!)?

In LEPA yesterday, an aircraft called 4 minutes before his slot (so 14 minutes before his last airborne time).

He was parked very close to N1/24R. Somewhere between stands 12 and 16. There were no aircraft at the hold, and none taxiing (apart from us). The place was deserted.

The controller denied him start, and told him that he had to re-file (for another massive delay). The aircraft in question just couldn't believe it - and assured the controller he could be at the holding point in 8 minutes or so and that he would be reporting him.

LEPA is a disgrace, and the controllers should be ashamed of their behaviour.

:yuk:

Bucket? Ahhh, I thought they always took the microphone into the toilet... :ok:

And turn their mobile phones off while on duty too, so we don't get so much interference. :D

Errr - like who knows what their exact weight will be some two hours before departure? Sometimes opps does not know 5 mins before departure!

.

:ok::ok::ok:

Got the T-shirt with that one. Grand tour of Palma, because of the inbound Iberia just taking off in Barcelona....

100%please,
LEPA have always been bad for this sort of thing. Almost as good as the taxi instructions you used to be given decelerating through 100kts.