ant1

your missing some of the point I feel,,, its not a general moan about ATC in spain from me, its a moan about the Spanish Madrid ATC, most of the world is great, if not superb, but I would trust my wallet to a Gypsy before I trust my life to air tragedy in spain! there a bunch of useless ****s

Are they bad?
 

In my opinion they are not the best in the world, having suffered an engine explosion - the crankshaft failed, taking two cylinders through the top cowling, destroying much of both the top cowl and lower cowl with debris hitting and damaging the tailplane, followed shortly afterwards by a small fire due to a petrol line being severed. All of this was at FL100, flying IFR in the airway. The fire extinquisher system worked but due to the damage the aircraft was not able to hold level flight, the best was about 300fps sink with full power on the good engine. When this was sorted a mayday was transmitted to Madrid, the response was "standby" after a delay of a couple of minutes I transmitted again and was told "standby" after another minute or so a passing British airways flight tried to relay the message, he too was told to standby. Transmitting on box two on 121.5 brought the same voice also telling me to standby. A few minutes went by and the emergency was acknowledged. And yes, I did change my transponder to 7700 before the first call.

A safe landing was made at a military airfield some 30nm short of Madrid (the aircraft was too badly damaged to make Madrid) where I enquired if there was another emergency going on with Madrid at the same time - I was told no, its normally like that as its so busy.....

This may also have something to do with the refusal of 'direct to'..........................

EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence

Is anyone one else slightly concerned with quotes like "burning all that extra fuel" and the like.

You are not burning extra fuel are you? You are burning the amount of fuel that the flight plan you have got in your hands says you will (within the tolerances of your flight planning system).

Any savings because of higher levels than filed or shortcuts or whatever are extra fuel in hand.

If you haven't got enough fuel to get you to your destination via your entire flight plan then I would question your ability to act as a commander of a commercial airliner.

zerotohero your terminating sentence smells, Hoo-ah! as Lieutenant Colonel Frank Slade would say.

Godeneaglepilot (BTW nice plane) sorry to hear that but one swallow doesn't make a summer ... I could tell you positive stories about well handled situations by Spain's ATC and also point out some others very badly handled by -supposedly- the cream of the crop. En todos sitios cuecen habas y en casa del vecino, a veces, a calderadas (you may want to Google that :E).

His dudeness

OK, as a regular airline passenger, let's put it in context over the performance of the industry as a whole. That's the bottom line for me as a passenger who has to suffer the delays when I'm traveling. Along with millions of others, including the crews.

From the Eurocontrol annual CODA report for 2009 (which has information supplied by IATA), the following are the causes of delays:

Airline caused delays - 49%
ATFM delay - 25%

The rest is made up of Weather delays, Airport company & security delays, or Miscellaneous delays.

So through a passengers eyes, you and your colleagues (not just flight deck of course) are causing double the delays that every aspect of ATC are causing. If you break down the ATC side even further then you get the following:

ATC Capacity (i.e. more aircraft than can fit in the airspace system safely)- 37%
ATC imposed Weather delay- 27%
ATC Staffing - 18%
Airport Facilities - 11%,
Other - 3%
ATC Equipment - 2%

The staffing problems you allude to therefore create 18% of the overall 25% of delay in Europe. Or 4.5% of the overall European delay if my sums are right. As a passenger, I'd want someone to sort out the 49% caused by Airline operations as a higher priority than the 4.5% caused by ATC staffing !

That's absolutely not to say that ATC shouldn't be trying to improve their part of the problem, they absolutely should. The reality though is that the vast majority of ATC causes (64%), such as Weather or capacity, have little scope for improvement.

Weather will always mean a reduction in traffic flows simply due to the conditions and unpredictability of flight paths which means a greater volume of airspace is needed for each flight to ensure its safety.

Capacity can be tackled perhaps but there are limits in some cases due to restricted airspace (maybe due to military operations), or the excessive demand from operators who all plan to arrive and depart a single piece of tarmac at exactly the same time which simply can't be physically accommodated, or where the operators decide that the cost benefit of paying for improvements in capacity is simply not worth it. ATC providers work hand in hand with airline operators (your managements) to identify areas where improvements would provide most benefit, and to identify whether the cost of doing so is one which justifies the work being undertaken.

In spite of your tart reply, I'll always try to ensure that pilots get a safe and efficient service. I trust you will do the same for me as a passenger ?

You have a job because of everyone that travels. As do I. They are my indirect customers as well.

European ATC is indeed overdue a sea change which will solve some problems. I am just not sure that the European ideas such as SESAR and FABs being proposed will bring all the benefits that are being touted. If you think it is a panacea for all todays problems then I'm afraid I'll believe it when I see it. Weather and capacity can never be solved 100%. You also have severe difficulties to overcome in terms of sovereignty and security and the right of States to have military operations which are unhindered by civil aircraft. Unless you have a master plan that we could use ? ;)

In the meantime, what is being done about airline induced delays in the report ? :ok:

RAT 5

I could almost guarantee that all UK controllers will use this window 100% of the time to make things work. If you get to the holding point 5 minutes early, then you'll be given take off clearance. And if you're running late, then the 10 minutes will be used to help you get airborne. In some scenarios, such as UK internal flights, we even have further agreements to pre-empt or extend the slots by -/+5 without reference to the CFMU in Brussels. For flights not requiring a slot, then flights can go early or late as well, within the parameters set down by Eurocontrol (-/+15 minutes).

As I keep saying, Spain playing it 100% by the book (or worse) for anything other than sound operational reasons is a folly and misguided.


Mcbruce

Fair enough. In the UK, you'd probably have got away without any hassle if the controller was on the ball and used experience to assess if you would make it or not. :ok: Perhaps Spanish controllers will read PPRuNe and realise that they would be better finding another way to fight their battle, if they are doing these things solely to try and make their point.

I understand someone was looking at removing the RPL system in Europe and requiring individual plans to be filed, but can't remember where I read it. That would resolve the problem perhaps ;)

Onwards and upwards !

I believe that 10W has called it absolutely correctly. Flow control is across the whole of Europe and takes into account route AND level. If you want a different level then file it and expect a slot accordingly. If you request en route then expect ATC to make enquiries, if they have capacity.
Expect things to become more onerous in future as 4D trajectories are forced through Europe by legislation and 'errors' are not well catered for in the ATM (Air Traffic Management) system.
ATC respond in accordance with the majority user wishes. If you want something outside of your company usual don't expect the controller providing the tactical service to respond instantly to your request. You need to be thinking pre tactically i.e 48 hours prior to flight.

BD

I believe the RPL system and database in UK died a death some 3 years ago. Now operators must file correctly, but do they? Given the posts in this thread and the number of FPL in UK airspace which are incorrect one must question the airlines as to having all of their sh1t in one sock.

BD

10W

In response to you long post whit stats and stuff,, all well and good, the bigger issue for me is THEY CANT SPEAK ENGLISH!

They really cant, they can manage standard phrases but maybe 35% of the time you have to repeat yourself as they don't hear you correct, maybe because there in Spanish mode from speaking to Iberia or Spanair and cant switch back to English easy, but they really really cant understand English.

The amount of times I have tried to ask some basic info other than can we descend and get an answer to a totally different question! I just look at the captain and say really whats the point.

They don't belong in that tower.

@10W
 

statistics are just numbers with limited information if you don´t know how those numbers are put together. For example the 49% of delay caused by the airlines might as well include delays on later flights of the day that were caused by some ATC delay on the first sector of the day.

Hi,

I take the level I want, if possible. Depents what is cheaper for the company or in the interest of flightsafety. In Spain it regularly happens you wil not get the filed level "due to flowcontrol" , wich should not be possible if received a CTOT and flightplan accepted: it's all politics.

I think traffic will not make the situation worse, but the civil servants (atco's and all those gays and girls working in (semi) state institutions) in the southern European countries wil, due to laboursettlements: they do not understand yet the financial state their countries are in, but eventually they will....:(

:rolleyes:

Amazing how the rest of Europe manages to do it on a daily basis.

Naturally, and no-one should rely on them being granted when determining minimum fuel reserves, but requiring aircraft to fly full departures out of spite is equally unprofessional and, frankly, childish.

It must be catching - been to Malaga and back this evening and the French also were not granting any directs due "flow control".

Flying by the rule?

Next time I will question any speed reduction/increase which differs from what I've filed, I will question any re-routing due to "military area engaged" if my flight plan has been accepted the way I've filed it, I will not try to understand any spanish or frenchy SID/STAR/WAYPOINT names but only standard ICAO spelling, if the ATC R/T is of bad quality I will ask to say again until 5 by 5 quality achieved, I will not take anything less than level 4 english and will file a report anytime I feel that the ATCO on the other side of the mic doesn't have a safe english language level, I will not accept any clearance which contains more than one series of vital instructions (ALT or SPEED or HDG), I will refuse any radio relay if asked, I won't be able to report spot winds or MET conditions, I won't be able to vacate at specific early exits if asked, my taxi speed will never exceed 5-10kts, wherever possible I will not accept rolling takeoffs......

Just a few things we could do without really harming anyone and without damaging our companies noticeably, but we could give ATC a pretty hard time just like they do with us....will they fight for our T&C's then?
I think not.

maybepilot

I don't know if you are only referring to the current situation in spain. I totally agree with you on the first half of your post, but usually if I ask you a rolling take-off is to expedite the traffic flow, to help you avoiding delay, the same if I ask you to "expedite vacate" and so on. a met condition/wind report is good for other pilots.

Then pilots are able to "give ATC a pretty hard time" anyhow :E

maybepilot, one word - LOL. You'd only harm yourself. Not accepting a rolling take-off to make ATC life harder :}, good one, you can also burn your fingers to make someone else suffer. I will gladly give 10 landings before your departure, not my problem.

Standard Speeds MAD ILS
 

Remember guys, standard speeds on MAD ILS are 180 kts at 12nm & 160 kts at 6nm, unless advised otherwise by ATC. Adhere to these, and then watch the chaos that ensues......

Read carefully my original post guys, I said "wherever possible" meaning that if my FMS says I will be ontime at destination then I'm not in a hurry so let 10 traffic land before me and 10 pile up behind.
Up to the nice Spaniards and Frenchmen ATCO's to deal with the traffic jam then.
An "expedite vacate" helps the ATCO not me really, so forget it.

Nightstop,
good one with the standard speeds in the MAD TMA, from now on they will be strictly adhered to.:E:E

which is why they thank you when you do it.

Nice try 10W but I think you will find the majority of the 49% attributed to the Airlines is code 93 (late inbound flight) which of course could be caused by any number of reasons including ATC.
We have gone off the point here anyway. There is no intention of using this thread as a means of getting back at individual controllers. The frustration is the wide level of ATC ability in Europe, Madrid perhaps being the poorest example. In addition, the ever increasing procedures being brought in that fail to take into account real world operations. This may be convenient for some Bureaucratic Erk sat in a comfortable office but it can not work. I also believe it could lead to a flight safety hazard as flight crew rush to be ready on time. Before all the sanctimonious comments come in about it being the Commanders responsibility to make sure all is safe just remember this will happen on the 4th sector of a long 4 sector day having gone into discretion the previous 4 days due to further ATC "work to rule" or new procedure compliance. Remember the crew are human as well.

Nope, it helps other a/c.

Actions taken by Spanish ATCos are stupid and hurt users of airspace (a/c crews), but actions you propose are equally stupid, and in fact also hurt users of airspace (a/c crews), so they make even less sense.

I get no thank you's in Spain, last time I just got a "lesson" on the discretionary application of the 15 minute slot window.
They are not even sending "ready messages" anymore, the most recent phrase is "contact your company for that".:yuk::yuk::yuk:

If the spanish "work to rule" ATCO finds himself having to ask the preceeding A/C a favour to facilitate the traffic behind it means his "work to rule" actions didn't quite work the way he wanted....so let him solve the thing without asking favors to those he's been giving a hard time up to then.

Working "to the rule" you have to vacate without delay, as that's what Madrid's AIP says.

Anyway, to work as a pilot or ATCo one needs some level of maturity, the argument started by Spaniards and followed by you seems a bit childish.

PS. If you decide to have an afternoon tea on the runway, it's not me going around.

And I will do that using less flaps (more landing distance required and less fuel burnt), not using reversers (less fuel,less noise,more runway needed) and using more comfy brakes (less brake wear, more comfort for pax and more distance required)...all within the highest safety standards and without delay leaving the runway,I will just do it at the end of it:E:E:E

The level of maturity of some ATCO's in the south of Europe is directly proportional to their english level.

My 2 pence of advise?Just go on strike.

So you say the best course of action is to be as childish as they are.

criss,

do you have kids?I do.

They don't learn when they are told, they learn the hard way.

maybepilot

not referring to the specific situation in spain, this is a typical situation in which a pilot is asked to expedit vacate:

"If you decide to have an afternoon tea on the runway, it's not me going around"

P.S.: do you feel more comfortable in italy?!! Mmmh (and I'm from italy)

Drex,

if you ask me to expedite vacate it's because ATC or someone behind me screwed up; what I do with my landing then is totally up to me.
If I decide to take it easy and safe and give myself every safety margin I deem necessary for my landing then nobody can question my decisions.

Not sure what you are on to with Italy however.

It happens, that even with right speed and distance, somebody is so slow vacating that seems to be in love with the runway...

about italy, I mean that it's strange that talking about spanish and also french ATC, nobody came out with italy!:E

ciaociao!

Never mind

Whispering Giant,
Little off there with your figures.
The top 10 spanish atc guys got 900'000 Euro last year. 700 of them earned over 600,ooo
The basic pay is 370,000 Euro.

All this bunch of crappy rules ARE the reason why aviation is simply being KILLED in Europe.

The BASIC rule of ATC is to SPEED UP the traffic flow while helping mantaining separation. These complex and UNUSEFUL rules you post equal LONGER DELAYS and NOTHING ELSE.

I would send all these overpaid ATC divas to KDFW, KLAX or KJFK to actually learn to be a controller...

This is the way we do things in Europe.... make SIMPLE things.... HARDER!

Good idea. I've learned proper RT and how to deal with pilots from some of the JFK controllers :}

Who sent the DLA message?

Read the The OFPIS File: The Organisation for the Preservation of Individuality and Sovereignty [Paperback] written by Vernon Coleman and you will understand where all this type of insane and mindless bureaucracy and red tape is coming from.

The OFPIS File: The Organisation for the Preservation of Individuality and Sovereignty [Paperback]

Can't we just all fly procedurally with 4D Navigation and do away with ATC altogether? They stick us all into small corridors of their choosing and then earn a fortune keeping us apart in those corridors. If there was no ATC, we'd find a way to work it out. If there were no planes, ATC wouldn't exist.

ATC in general is a great example of a monopoly providing a poor service to paying customers who have no choice but to use it. It makes them lazy and slow to adapt to the changing priorities of their customers.

Which is the dog, which is the tail?

I normally do not enter these types of discussions ( us and them ) as they invariably bring us nowhere. But just a couple of fact corrections for the new in here :

Wrong, basic task is to separarte traffic from other traffic and from various areas. The expeditious bit is there all right , but secondary in priority.

I' m sure 10W will reply you , but for me it is no different to the ( say RYR ) girl that close the check in 40 min before ETD while the inbound flight is not even landed yet. Come at the gate 38 min bore ETD ,and you'll have a to buy a new ticket on the next flight. Both are equally stupid, but that's the world we live in 2010.

Wrong info, more like half . But does not matter, why are their salaries bothering you as a pilot ? (if you are one ) jealousy? I happened to know the former Fleet chief Pilot on the AF Concorde. His salary was 20 times mine at the time ,for between 2 and 4 flights a month. Jealous, not, envious , you bet! But good luck for him.

Finally :
Be my guest .Try. The technology already exsist , it is called ADS-B coupled with CDTI (Cockpit display of traffic info ). ask UPS.

Ah, and the reason why they are " small corridors" as you call them is perhaps also to avoid the military areas and other niceties no ?

I believe it's illegal for them to strike.

this is from the ATC forum..

Rather than focus on the 'childishness' and waste of fuel, what about the threat to your safety?
These are the people trying to stop another Uberlingen, Tenerife, GOL, PSA should they be working under these conditions?

No they should not.

Still should I as client of them be treated the way we are at the moment? Me don´t think so. Mr & Mrs. real good paid ATCO in their shiny towers not wanting to relay a ready message? Deliberately wrecking schedule like in "enjoy the view" ´s example? Remembers me of the german 1973 'slow-go'.

Putting an real big portion of stress and uncertainy on aircrews? Is that safe? Does it help to make their case when airlines and coorperate airplanes schedule are junked by their action? My best guess is no.

I operate a coorperate airplane mostly in Europe as a one man show, meaning I do all the planning and flying (with my fellow co-captain)
The endless and everchanging changes in Eurocontrol (RAD - how I hate that thing) is one thing that is enough to push one over the edge, but the different handling and substrike performance of the guys in Spain is the nail on the coffin. (for my nerves, that is)

As an ATCOs son I do understand ATC a bit and I´m not advocating unregulated flying - that won´t work in todays traffic. Even CFMU has its goods. But how the system works today is sometimes akward and bad.
That single ATCOs use their 'force majeur' is unacceptable. We ll know how many factors flow into a single flight and its punctualty. To try to make such a flexible, wobbling system as airtraffic rigid is not going to work.
I always understood ATCOs as part of our team, after all we can´t life without em and viceversa.