ATC situation in Spain
 

Hello!

It´s been a long time since I last updated the changing situation we ATCO´s are experimenting in the lasts months in Spain. I´m going to throw in some info so that you can make yourself a picture of what to expect when you fly through our skies. Maybe this can prevent some rant from you guys on the radio or in this forum. I´ll try to limit myself only to facts, some other time I´ll let you know my opinion:

• We have been imposed BY LAW (no talks, no agreements, no negotiation with our union) an increase in our yearly working hours, from 1200 hrs to 1670 hrs, 39% more hrs a year.
• Our time for breaks has been reduced, also BY LAW, from 33% to 25% daily, and from 50% to 33% during nights. No previous study about the impact on our work load has been made. This adds to the increase in our yearly hours: we work more hours with less resting time. The distribution of the breaks is sometimes surreal: breaks at the beginning of your shift make you work 6 hrs with only a 45 min. break.
• Mandatory recalls are now legal for us (only for Spanish ATCO´s, this doesn´t affect to the rest of the Spanish workers, yet ...), anytime, anyday, 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year. This means that AENA (Spanish ATC SP) can make you work whenever they want, on your days off, with no excuses for not attending the service. They can let you know with only 6 hrs notice, so you can imagine how this disturbs your private life: wife, kids, friends, etc ... SLAVERY?
• Vacations are now assigned by AENA, and you can only know your monthly schedule (including holydays) on the 20th of the previous month: that is only 10 days to plan ahead your holydays, family life, etc ... Even so, AENA can change it anytime, anyway they want.
• Operational decisions are now taken by staff non-operational personnel: runway in use, number of sectors and configuration in use, sector capacity, regulations, calibration-aircraft timetables, ATCO´s at work ... ATCO supervisors must obey their orders without discussion.
• Veteran ATCO´s older than 57 (the most experienced) are not allowed to control anymore, and are now forced to do burocratic jobs. This has been a great loss for all of us, because of their huge experience on the job. At Madrid TMA, about 30% of the ATCO´s have been retired from operational jobs, and have been hardly replaced by already exploited colleagues or by non-operational ATCO´s forced to return to the ACC.
• The limit of monthly working hrs has been risen to 200 hrs. My wife works around 180 hrs from 0900 to 1700, no nights, no weekends, no holydays ... Some people are working 20-25 days in a row, and on their days off it is usual to be assigned an "imaginaria" service: you must be on call 1 hr before the service starts up to 1/2 an hr after because they can phone you and you must report at work. And even if you don´t have an "imaginaria" that day, a recall can be imposed the previous day.
• When we complain about sector capacities being exceeded, the answer we get from AENA or from EASA (Spanish air safety agency) is that it´s our fault for abusing direct routings or clearing FL different from those filed in the FP. They even remind us that there is an Eurocontrol document preventing against direct routing and non-scheduled FL´s.
• Our salaries have been cut up to a 70% in some cases. AENA is not respecting pay agreements signed with the ATCO´s during the last 10 years. We don´t know what we will get paid next month.
• Socially, our profession has been ruined as we are now seen by most of the people as privileged lazy scum with high salaries and low productivities, always on strike, always abusing the rest of the citizens (the last strike in Spanish ATC was in 1986), in a country with more than 5 million unemployed (more than 20%). The media campaign against us reached even international news agencies, and had nothing to envy to that made by Goebbles against jews.
• You can be fired for "disciplinary" reasons anytime. You can consider the concept "disciplinary" in the context in which this whole message is written.
• You can be sent to another destination at AENA´s wish. No excuses, no compensation. We are expecting to see several forced relocations of ATCO´s from Barcelona ACC to Madrid ACC to compensate for the veterans they decided no longer could be operational.
• Sick leaves are on the rise, with the increase of work-load for those still active: at LEAL, 8 out of 18 are down, at Sevilla ACC its 18 out of 120 down, etc ... My colleagues are literally breaking down on a daily basis.
• All the trainning time has been suspended: no more time for new procedures, new LOA´s, new systems ...
• LSA (Air Safety Law) can impose very high monetary fines on ATCO´s, up to 240.000 €, for diverse reasons. In fact, AESA doesn´t have a state budget: they finance themselves by the fines they impose. Bye, bye "just culture" ...
• High season is about to begin in the coasts of Spain and at the Balearic Islands ...
• USCA (Spanish main union, 96%) has repeatedly denounced that SAFETY IS AT RISK in the Spanish skies: 96% increase in incidents in march, with 7 almost-collisions at Madrid TMA (class A incidents) in 4 months. More info at: Caos en los cielos españoles :: Aviación :: Política :: Periodista Digital
• USCA has been spied by Spanish state intelligence, their webpage has been hacked, the mails have been stolen.

I hope this helps you to understand why we can´t give direct routings or FL other than those of the FP, or some other non-desirable situations. I can assure you that we Spanish ATCO´s are doing our best, as we have always done. I will gladly attend any question that arises on this matter.


Saludos!

My dear spanish colleagues, :ok:

If you think that your T&C aren't atractive anymore ,please Shall we change positions?
You may come to my airport and I will go to your airport. Package for package :} without additional renumeration allowances. :E
But let's examine sentence by sentence:

1.Increase from 1200 to 1670 hr per yer.It means from 100 hours working per month to 140 hr per year. It is still behind my working hours that are 156 minimum,or another rule in that direction: Number of working days during the month multiple with 8 i.e in some months it could be as much as 176 or extreme case 184 hours per month. It is also regulated by Law.personally I remember 144 hours as a rule but that has been changed in contract but nobady knows when and how,even Law says that representative of workers must accept changes. :confused:

2.Time for breaks, 1 hour if your shift is 12 hours,if you work in administration 8 hours dayli you are still entitled to 1 hour break.:}

3.Mandathory recalls: We have no such formal institution but if SATCO calls you it means immediatelly! :E

4.montly schedule is never released before 25th due to "high importance of projects" but anyhow schedule doesn't mean anything because it could be changed undefinitelly number of times per month:ugh:

5. For idea "direct routing" I have been punished only once,so far.....:}

6. Our proffesional associations take the highest responsibility for such public attitude.They haven't done anything in that direction.
:mad:
7.Yes,Director general could fire up to 5% of total workfoce in company without any explanation,in one year. If he/she needs more firings than should ask iunion representative for opinion.Could you imagine what does it mean in real life?
:*
8.You could be sent at any location without explanation or whatsever,since 1945.:}

9.Not air safety law but Criminal Law, deals with the mistakes during the operational work. 5 years in prison if you gave wrong navigational instruction. :ouch:

10 Union has always been under strcict state control.Nothing new. :D

So as you could see I will consider move to Valencia APP as a positive change.....
:E
Best regards,

Holy Sh:mad:te that is absolutely shocking

Perez, you and your collegues have my utmost sympathy, I hope it improves for you.

SINGAPURCANAC: sounds like your T&C's suck, but nothing justifies the travesty going on in spain at the moment

thanks for simpaty,but I messed some other points,
-ATCO's job still is premium job.1000 aplications per available seat
- I like my job,and I would like to retire as atcos if it is possible,
- salary is three to four times average salary
-and last thing,but the most crucial:
The lowest paid,aps atco in Europe. Everyone else has better T&C in Europe.

I am fighting hard,for each issue mentioned above for ages, but we should be at least honest at the end of the day.
No one force us to work as an ATCO. I haven't seen mass resignation.And of course it would not happen in Europe.

"Mal de muchos, consuelo de tontos", spanish proverb
 

Dear SINGAPURCANAC:

honestly, I get no confort knowing that your conditions at work are, in some cases, worst than ours in Spain (btw, where are you working at?).

I really hope that you didn´t expect me to be any happier if we were whipped twice at work, just because they whipped you more! And I also hope that it is not your desire that every ATCO in the world has your same conditions at work!

When I applied for ATC school in Madrid, we were almost 7000 applicants for 150 seats. After 22 months at school, with a monthly pay of 150 € (thank God my wife had a job to pay the mortage), we were offered a contract with AENA under certain conditions. These conditions are the ones that have been changed by law by this goverment we are suffering in Spain. It is like changing the rules in the middle of a match, just because the other team is not happy with the score. And the referee is also playing for the other team!

One important point that I didn´t put clear enough in the other message: our former 1200 hrs a year did not include vacations or training. If they were included, the total would have been 1500 hrs a year. Now it is 1670 PLUS vacations and training.

Anyway, what is really important here is the fact that all this mess is affecting SAFETY in our system. AENA (their managers) consider that the debt that grew up to 13.000 million € since 2004 (before that AENA had always had benefits) is more important than SAFETY. And we ATCO´s are suffering this philosophy.

Best wishes for your profession, wherever you are ...


Saludos!

P. S. thanks for the sympathy, coolbeans. Very much welcome!

The other side of the coin
 

I have heard from several sources (the quote above happens to be from the Daily Mail and we all know that they tend to twist facts), but I know a Spanish air traffic controller and whilst I have not asked her how much she earns, she does live extremely well and has told us that she earns far more than her husband who is an avionics engineer with many years of experience, and he is well into 6 figures.

Whilst I would certainly not condone any actions which could impact on safety, such as imposing longer working hours, and so on, the conditions outlined above should, I think, be taken within the context of this very high salary. I am not in any way belittling the work that the controllers do and the huge responsibility they have.

Well that didn't take long....

Capetonian, are you seriously believing something from the daily mail? According to the same source the Irish ATCs average €230K too, not! The Spaniards were on a good wicket, now they are on a bloody lousy one from my reading of it.

Singa - The race for the bottom has not commenced in this profession, yet. You don't have to have sympathy for someone doing better than you, but at least show some empathy for those now suffering from imposed draconian conditions.

P_perez, good luck with your plight. Imposed work rules, practices and salaries are never a good outcome; it sounds as if you guys have gone from a 'great job' to a very average one (perhaps even a poor job). Hopefully your union can get in there and fight for you both publicly and politically. The PR battle is always important and the truth gets in the way of good copy. Don't rely on public empathy you can't even get that from your own profession if reading this thread gives any clues. Safety, safety, safety is your PR message. Hours of work (fatigue), no social life, forced overtime, strict medical standards, lack of experience on the boards leading to publicly available statistics (ie increased incident rates and/or near misses etc) are good places to start. Get IFATCA involved too, they have lots of resources about 'average' working conditions and safety expectations/outcomes.

It's good political pressure to explain why you are below average (in whatever category) even though you'd consider yourselves to be a 'first world' country.

PS I can't believe you haven't downed tools yet? Is that what they want you to do, Reagan solution then pending?

What I find the most shocking fact is that non-operational personel decides about operational problems. How on earth can some bean-counter decide which runway is in use or which sectors are to be consolidated etc????

About the contract details: I can understand everyone is upset about the changes. Anybody would be with so many goodies taken away. What I seriously criticize is AENA being able to call you to work at very short notice and with seemingly no limitations concerning working days in a row. In our outfit we don´t hear those calls anymore if we don´t want to go. It´s still mostly on a voluntary basis, because management knows sick days would rise if they forced people to work.

I wish you guys down south all the best, let´s hope you´ll make it through the busy period without serious happenings. However I´ll still give direct routings for the southbound aircraft! With the slots creating a 15-minute-window the average shortcut won´t hurt at all. I don´t think you can make up more than 10 minutes on a 2hrs-flight just by shortcuts. At 420kts that would mean a saved distance of 70 miles...that´s rather unlikely to be possible.

@p perez,blocka,

It seems that you missed somwhere my point. I hadn't idea to say that everyone contracts should be as mine. Also I didn't say that my contract is bad,I just said that even as the lowest paid aps atco in europe I am far away from bad living standard. Actually, 99% of workforce is not even close to atcos T&C.

I just pointed out that your contract changes is nothing special .
In liberal or social capitalism, it is the fundament of all relations.
Conditions aren't fixed.
If you said that you need fixed conditions I think that for this you have to go North Korea,at least.
So if we agree that conditions aren't fixed than we have to accept changes.
Management realised that they could reduce T&C.
How many spanish atcos have left the job since changes ?
I will tell you. ZERO
And you know better than me why the number is zero.
Because,
-There is no better place in the whole world,to be an atco,(when you count everything,salary,lifestyle,general conditions,,and so on.....)

So that is the reason,why I said that if you aren't satisfied I will take your position.
Of course such option is not available for me,unfortunatelly .... :{

And you know all those stuff,but it is easier to cry rather than to smile....

Anyhow best regards to spanish atcos,and if I could help,I will be glad to do so
:ok:

I hinted that I was sceptical, but I feel that it must be based on truth, and I do have other evidence, as mentioned, that the Spanish ATCs do earn a pretty impressive salary - and my information is current.

Capetonian, yes I did copy your skepticism but you then went on to "believe it" and publish it Perhaps you meant to say "did earn"? Things have changed, no?

I'm afraid you are selling the community way too short. Most people I know get far more notice than 10 days for their roster and are not effectively 'on call' on every day off without the right to say no I'm not coming in.

Anyway, back to topic - Good luck to all in Spain, you're gonna need it.

MAD Speed Control
 

Question for p_perez:

We're vectored onto the LOC 33L from Tobek having been instructed to maintain 220 kts. That Controller then changes us to the next frequency, he/she then clears us for the ILS. Are we expected to maintain 220 kts until instructed otherwise, or should we reduce anyway in accordance with the AIP to 180 kts at 12nm and 160 at 6nm. Problem is, the verbal instruction to reduce speed often never comes, which can be embarassing :{

you hear a lot of impressive figures, but what actually IS the basic salary of a Spanish ATCO? No overtime, no frills.. just the "entry" level for a valid ATCO. Something that equates in the UK at just over £ 45k a year (in nats)

MAD Discontinued Approach Technique
 

OK p_perez, here's another question while you're thinking about the answer to my first above:

We're vectored on to the 18L LOC still at 11,000 ft QNH (9000 ft AGL) at BERUC (21.4 nm final). We decide the approach can't be completed safely from this altitude so we decide to discontinue the approach. Are you expecting us to:

(a) Maintain 11,000 ft and fly the standard missed approach tracks?
(b) Descend to 8,000 ft (the missed approach holding altitude) and fly the standard missed approach tracks?
(c) Change to TWR as instructed and ask for instructions?
(d) Remain on your frequency and set transponder code 7600?
(e) Hold in our present position?

Legal Tender, you want to know our salary? Then ask our P.M. José Blanco, because we have no idea. We still don't know what we'll be paid at the end of the month. Since the decree our salary has been reduced every month and we don't know when it's going to stop. Rumours are we'll end up earning between 3.000 € and 2.000 € depending if we work in a big ACC or a small TWR, and we are allready close to those figures.

Actually, next month I'll probably earn around 1.500 €, because I recently enjoyed a 15 days leave for having a child and I've just received a letter denying me those days and therefore they'll be discounted from my next pay. That's a right for EVERY worker in Spain... except for ATCOs apparently.

Singapurcanac, you really made me laugh when you said that there is no better place in the whole world to be an atco... In just a few days we've had four anxiety attacks (in LERS, LECP, LECS and LEAL), two of them had to be evacuated by an ambulance to the hospital. Last week in a sector where the maximum capacity was 26 acft/hour we had 34 acft in 30 minutes plus an emergency... and the high season is about to start and the "bean-counters" don't care to overload the sectors and keep chosing the runways in use that allows more acft per hour despite the wind or other factors.

It's true so far nobody has quitted the job yet, but it is also true that more than 20% of the staff is on medical leave. Many of us are thinking about quitting the job, we are just waiting to see how the situation develops (waiting for the trials), but we are not going to stand this situation for ever, at least not me.

I used to like this job, but my wife and kid are more important to me. Having only three or four days off a month (and still having the possibility of being forced to work those days) is the perfect way of breaking up a family.

And, the most important thing of all, it's a matter of time that one of us is going to get involved in an ACCIDENT.

Whats happening in Spain sounds absolutely scandalous, and whats more, if the accounts are accurate then anyone interested in safety must hear the alarm bells ringing...

Of our T&Cs in NATS, one that many of us hold dearest is our repeating roster, with the ability to plan our home lives accordingly. To take that away would create a lot of stress in many households. Not exactly what you need when going in for a shift.

I guess this is a real impact of the austerity measures being introduced in some EU countries. Good luck to my Spanish counterparts, I hope you have better news soon.

+1, scandalous indeed.
Alarm bells and whistles all sound fairly strident to me, and I'm on the other side of the world.

Regardless of how good the past conditions have been, I am disappointed that some controllers in other places may be prepared to "turn the other cheek" in regard to what appears to be happening. No matter how bad conditions may be in your own countries, this sort of treatment by the employer, with apparent government backing, is untenable, and is likely to result in Bad Things Happening.

To my Spanish counterparts, all I can suggest is that you keep a good paper trail (or email trail) of recalls/hours worked, work practices/training shortfalls you perceive to be unsafe, and formally protest each time you are required to work a shift that you would prefer not to. It may make no difference, but at least there is a record.

If I was on holiday in the area, I would probably choose to fly around rather than through Spanish airspace, as a SLF. Inconvenience or not.

I could not understand some comments.Thread is shifting from "Situation in Spain" to "What SINGA actually said" .
If I understand properly point of thread is
-Deteriorating of T&C in Spain

and according to main idea of thread,I clearly said:
-that even with significant deteriorating of T&C ,Spain still remains as the best possible place to be an ATCO.

If you don't believe to me than put ad on flightglobal for vacant Spanish position,and you will see thousands of applications per available seat. Of course if they avoid number of restrictions such as: university degree, Spanish language, no salary until validation and so on.

Also as someone who is fighting on daily basis with T&C issues from my experience I know that only one sentece in this direction is applicable:

"If you think that you deserve more ,go to open labor market and check it! "
This sentence is especially applicable in European Union,for citizen of EU! :ok:

That is the beginning and end of all T&C stories.
Unfortunately.

Animo companyeros
 

My best wishes to all my colleagues in Spain. I haven't been directly in touch with all of you (obviously difficult since you guys are so many) but if you need anything please let me know.

Singa, yes, the thread is regarding spanish T&C's, however you made a remark here, therefore it is open for debate. It feels quite insulting that, after the company gets to change the T&C's of their own accord (no negotiation) you deny them of their right to complain and try to do something about it. I do not doubt that you're worse off, unluckily for you, but that doesn't mean that AENA and the spanish government have acted well. Feels like you playing a game and the rules change half way so you cannot win. Just because you were doing well, too damn well.

Pd: como ya le he comentado a otros, por ahora en Maastricht no buscan a mas, pero estoy convencido de que es algo coyuntural (crisis+volcán). Pero si vais a dar el salto, mirad aqui regularmente: EUROCONTROL - Job Opportunities for Qualified Air Traffic Controllers

Good luck, your fight is our fight, if you loose maybe we will all loose in the long term if other "goverments" choose to copy Blanco.

I have just said that we aren't able to do anything. I saw it in my short carrier numerous times.
If Spanish government had idea to negotiate they would do it.
It is more than obvious that Government had NO idea to negotiate.
Does Government(or regime if you would like to call them properly :E) have power to do so,even in Europe?
YES.
Is it correct way in today' Europe?
NO
But,what really workers could do in such cases?
Revolution?
We need it ,but majority finds it as a non-necessary move,so there is no revolution.
What else ?
To accept changes,because...(you or whoever wants ,name it)
Or,
Change company.
life is so simple,but people like to cry over destiny instead of doing proper steps.
It is human nature.

And to return to Spanish case,I will tell what Spanish atcos will find if they try to change something.
-Send CV to prosperous employer.
Than they will realize:
- That at Middle East,atco earns great salary,but also
-they work in environment where modern safety doesn't exist(ask Vercigetorix)
- you will go to jail if you made huge mistake,
-no contract guarantees,
-no one ask you anything,
-you are supposed to work,and only work
- home is 5000km far awayat least,and you will face situation that you have to go but there is no option to do so.
-Climate
- family issues,wife usually stands at home,children has to change school and even in some cases school system has to be changed
- in cases of some cities ,everything but ecology
-and main question what after 3/5 years of contract.....

than when you put on paper everything, you will realize all those and many other hidden issues for only 2000/3000 euros per month,if it remains in your pocket ,
it could be easily to understand why
Murcia TWR for 1000 euros per month is so good option. :ok:

the only real problem is that management also knows this so they act properly. :{

Hello!

Wow! so many things to say, and also so many thanks to give (andrijander, Tarq57, beaver liquor ...), I´ll try to answer and comment briefly.

First, thank you very much to all the people that showed their solidarity with us here in "banana republic" Spain. It is hard to read about these conditions, but believe me, much harder to live and work under them. There is a detail I did not mention, but can also help you to make yourself an idea of the kind of politicians that rule Spain nowdays: Mr "Pepiño" Blanco, the Spanish minister of Development, responsible for the planning of all this abuse with the help of american company McKinsey (read about them at McKinsey & Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ), they also helped with Railtrack, the British railway company, and with mass suicidal´s France Telecom.

Well, from a personal point of view, what´s curious at least here is that Mr Blanco´s formation is limited to High School: he tried to study Law, but never completed 1st year. This guy is responsible for all public works in Spain and a possible successor for disastrous Mr. Zapatero. All of us ATCO´s in Spain have, at least, completed 3 years of university, and most of us have a complete carreer.

For SINGAPURCANAC: man, you must be the comic relief of this thread. Guys: we have a humorist with us! Really, with increasing 5.000.000 unemployed in Spain (more than 20%), you want us to resign our job just because they abuse us? The number of ATCO´s that have resigned is YOUR messure of the abuse we are suffering? I´m complaining because I had decent working conditions similar to those my colleagues in France, Germany, Italy or Portugal have. It is not salary our main concern, it´s "only" that we are buying too many tickets for the airplane-accident lottery, and that is a game we don´t want to play!

Many of us have tried to apply for an ATC job in other countries, I was even willing to go to our antipodes at NZ with my wife and kids! That is a better messure of how pissed off we are in Spain.


Regarding our salary, I don´t really understand the curiosity about this matter. I hope it has nothing to be with the idea that the higher the pay, the bigger the abuse you must endure. Our salary was very high in the past (before february 5th) because we worked sooo much voluntary overtime. Our 1200 hrs/year came from the fact that we used to be state workers: in Spain, state workers labour 1820 hrs/year (52 weeks x 35 hrs), but they don´t work night shifts, nor weekends, nor 15 national/autonomous/provincial/local holydays. The Spanish goverment had 2 choices here: pay ATCO´s more for those hrs. or discount them from our yearly amount: they chose the later. So that´s why our yearly hrs. became 1200 efective (not including vacations or trainning), even after our employer changed to AENA and we were no longer state workers.

In the last years, with the rise in air traffic, AENA had another choice to make: train and hire new controllers, or offer well paid voluntary overtime to the ATCO´s already working. They once again chose the later. The average yearly hrs in the last years have been around 1750 hrs/year/ATCO, VOLUNTARY OVERTIME. Not everybody accepted overtime, not all the time either.

What they have now done is make that overtime mandatory for everyone. And the salary has been reduced up to a 70% for those hrs. In my case, just to satisfy someone´s curiosity around here, last pay was 3500 €, in a month were I "enjoyed" 2 mandatory recalls with less than 24 hrs notice, and knowing that they included a 14 day complementary pay which will be eliminated from next month´s pay. How much will I get next month? 1st, I don´t know; 2nd, less than 3500 € for sure.


For Nightstop: I´m sorry, but I don´t work al Madrid TMA, so I can´t help you with that specific matter. But have in mind what I said of the particular situation they are going through: 30% of the most experienced ATCO´s working in Madrid TMA (app) have been retired from operational, and have been replaced by not so experienced colleagues that come from enroute positions or non-operational jobs outside the ACC. Give them time to get the expertise, please.


Saludos!

@p perez,
1. I am not your enemy!
2. I am not against ATCOs,because I am atco itself,

I have just tried to explain situation that you have already faced or you will encounter very soon.

All those things ,previously mentioned, I saw more than once in my aviation carrier. Needles to say that any single atcos help us/me in such cases,but neverless we also didn't cry publicly.

If you count my 15 years struggle and fight with management about the same issues, than you will accept that my opinion is not nice for ears but works in real life.
So for particular Spanish case it will be:

-ATCOs will accept changes,without too many resistance ,because,previously they earned a lot of money and bought enough properties for rent,or shares in well established international companies or investment funds, or there is huge amount money at the bank account,at least,which will give an extra revenues on already high salaries in situation where majority of people are on the edge.

-Once again it will attract newcomers to apply for job in your company that will give idea to management that conditions are quite good,and at least they could think about reducing them for some less important units.

-Some atcos will refuse such way and will try somewhere else,than they will realize numbers and conditions as stated earlier plus that many countries worldwide do not recognize Spanish licenses or there are a waiting list with hundreds of native English speakers atcos with a little bit more priority than non native English speakers.

-It will remain number of active ATCOs at the stable level so management will once again pointed out that T&C are at least adequate,with all implication....

- Situation will be quite negative,but accident free,or at least there won't be direct connection between accident and staff level or staff salary.

there will be a few more issues but if you ask yourself is it already looks like CATCH 22,yes it is.
And you,me or anyone else is not in position to change conditions.
So that is the true. Not nice for ears but works in real life.
Anyhow best regards :ok:

This makes very sobering reading, particularly to anyone that works in a short staffed Ops room where overtime is quickly becoming the norm.

Thanks for being so frank p_perez, good luck to you and your colleagues.

Hello!

just a brief message with an example of how nonsense is reaching such high levels in our profession lately ...

A female coleague working at LEMD (Barajas´TWR) was "granted" by AENA with one of those mandatory recalls I already told you about: she was just about to finish her morning shift, when someone from the staff of HR visited the TWR and told her that she had to return to work that night. My colleague is themother of a baby, and couldn´t find anybody with such a short notice to babysit him. So the only solution she found is to attend the service that night, taking the baby with her. Of course, she had to take the craddle and the feeding bottle, along with the meal for the dinner. The baby had to go through the security screening process, were the surprised security personnel assigned him an ID badge for his overnight stay.

By now, you migh think I went bananas, and all this is nothing but invention, well here you go:

http://www.controladoresaereos.org/w...ads/teje_1.jpg


More news soon!

Messing about safety critical staff T&Cs is clearly a flight safety issue. How switched on will a mother be with her child with her while on an unexpected shift? How alert will a controller be if unable to plan their rest and social life because they are at the whim of bean counters who think of it as a big chess game?

Never mind the financial aspect (which is cause for a lot of stress by itself), the duty/rest cycles being messed about should surely be cause for international alarm.
Why are Spain not taken to task over the issue in the European arena? How is it that AENA can neglect studies about human performance in safety critical positions?
Where is IFALPA for instance in this matter? They should be issuing black stars for lack of well rested controllers..

I'm sure the government are counting on the sentiment of the people who feel that the controllers have nothing to complain about regarding their salaries and jobs, but this is a serious breech of safety and perhaps people should worry about the chances of big lumps of metal falling out of the sky..

Unbelievable.

Perhaps your union should point your management towards the UK legal requirements which are placed on both employers and ATC Licence holders (known as SRATCOH).

It can be found in Appendix D here.

I believe the case you mention would be illegal under UK law.

It was brought in to prevent fatigue and human factors problems associated with ATC and shift working. As we are all supposed to be aligning in Europe, maybe it's time the Spanish government got on board with its safety obligations ?

If I was the lady in question, I think I may have developed a stomach bug an hour before my night duty and let the management pick up the pieces.

I would have found a stomach bug
 

at the beginning of the night shift and would have had to be sure it had really gone before returning to work...maybe after five days or so.

How much rest do you think she had before the night shift with a baby to attend at home? This is really worrying...

Dear eagletflyer , u seem to have definitely understood the spanish concern... :rolleyes:
To p_perez, keep on truckin' and suerte.... :ok:

CORRECTION: In my previous post, I made a mistake with the gender of the controller that had to take HIS son to one of the LEMD TWR´s for a mandatory night service: it was a MALE colleague. The rest of the information is correct. Another case ocurred 2 weeks ago, this time at Madrid ACC: a female colleague, mother of 2 children, had to take them both with her to spend the night at the ACC while she had to comply with the forced night shift imposed by AENA. At Sevilla ACC, 3/4 weeks ago, a mother of a 9 month old baby girl that was finishing her morning shift was told by AENA staff that she had to return that night to work from 2200 till 0800 next day; in this case, it coincided that her husband is also a ATCO at Sevilla TWR, and had night service that finished at 0230. This time, fortunately, grandparents where at hand and the girls could sleep in her craddle at home. In all 3 cases, AENA management was informed of the special circumstances. No palliative action was taken.


Hello!

thank you for your interest in our situation. I can assure you that we all have the conviction that the trend is in-crescendo regarding AENA´s pressure on us. With the summer season in it´s beginning, air traffic on the rise as well as sick leaves, the situation can only get worse during the next 3 months. We allready have people with a disciplinary expedient opened by AENA for refusing to pick up the notification of a forced service and there for, not attending it. This disciplinary expedient can lead to being fired.

We have fought, and are still fighting, in the legal terrain in Spanish courts, but Justice in Spain is strongly influenced by politics. The first ruling in our battle to reach the Constitutional Court had an adverse ruling: Mr. Ricardo Bodas, president of the Social Hall of the National Court, found no trace of unconstitutionality in the law against Spanish ATCO´s. This judge is the former Director General of Relations between the Spanish Goverment and the Justice Administration (a political position), and became judge by a special procedure (called "3er turno" = "3rd turn") that allows the goverment to nominate any lawyer as judge at own discretion.

We are also giving the International arena a chance, and presently we have open procedures at the European Parliament, at the European Commission, and at the Luxemburg Court. USCA will also file a complaint at the International Labour Organization (ILO) for the unilaterall modification by AENA and the Spanish goverment of the T&C´s between AENA and ATCO´s.

Several organizations have published statements about our situation, like IFATCA (http://www.ifatca.org/press/080210.pdf), IFALPA (http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Leve...%20dispute.pdf) OR ATCEUC (http://www.atceuc.org/upload/ATC-EUC...s-in-spain.pdf), and several other in Spain.

Next june 18th we have elections in USCA, and hopefully our new leaders will reconduct this disaster, recovering dignity for the proffesionals, and common sense and safety concern for the AENA management.

Saludos!

P Perez,

Thank you for sharing your latest intolerable situation.

How come this photo hasnt ended up on the front page of El Mundo or El Pais?

Or have the government completely turned public opinion against ATCOs?

FWIW

...not sure which photo that would be, assuming you are not talking figuratively, but I would assume the media do not feel like playing into the hands of the controller's union. I do not base this on any specific information, just making a general remark.

Indeed.

I understand this might have changed as of late, but until recently it was not AENA but the controllers themselves who set their own work schedule. Some if not most of them would regularly work multiple back-to-back shifts in order to get longer spells of time off (or earn rather valuable overtime, depending on the size of their mortgage :E). I imagine it might be a bit awkward to complain about being told to work back-to-backs when you used to do that of your own accord.

Agreed (whatever a black star is in this context). However, the situation is not at all new, as explained above.

Over in the Rumours section someone suggests ATCOs from outside Spain should take a jumpseat ride into Madrid before stepping in defence of the Southern element. I cannot but second that man's impressions on the other thread. It doesn't have to be MAD, btw, with a couple of exceptions any other AENA airport will do. I think you might struggle to hear of anyone with any experience of flying in Spain who will be sympathetic to their controller's grievance.

I've just received my schedule for July. AENA has started programming what we call "zulus", in which the same day you work the morning and the night shift (and usually also means working in the afternoon the day before and the day after...).

The good thing is that I have few chances of getting mandatory recalls... because I have no space in my schedule for them because I work almost every day (in 33 days, from the 7th of june to the 10th of july,only two days off).

And I have a new born baby and my wife starts working again in a few days (on shifts also). I'll have to start checking with the Security staff what are the requirements to get my son an ID card. AENA (which is the same as writing the spanish government) has really done an excellent job in ruining my family life.

We used to do that in Maastricht, but abandoned it in January - it's a huge relief that you don't have to work the morning before the night - it completely screws up your biorythm.
I hope your situation will get better soon!

Airservices has been inflicting (or allowing us to inflict ourselves - depending on your viewpoint) with that very thing for at least the last 10 years :{

@undervaluedATC
Same situation here.
Except that we get slightly more than 2 days off in every 33.
How about you?

Isn't anybody remotely concerned about the fatigue issue with these controllers?
Or do most PPrune users just prefer to snipe at their perceived shortcomings?
This will probably end in tears.

Why don't the Spanish ATC Union speak to the UK CAA about the UK's legal setup (SRATCOH) ? Ask them why it was brought in (to combat fatigue) and how it works in practice ... very well. :ok:

Or ask the union to forward a copy of a typical Spanish roster to the UK union (Prospect) and some of their experts could detail all the various ways in which it would be breaking UK law.

Time for air safety to take the driving seat and force Europe to introduce a scheme regulating hours for ATC staff. It doesn't have to be exactly the UK system, but that would be a good starting point and hard to better.

Hello!

July rosters have just been published for all ATCO´s in Spain. Nothing new: as expected, many services with few (VERY FEW) days off, vacation periods granted (or not) at AENA´s discretion, abundant "zulu"-days (morning and night service in the same day - 17 hr. work time in a 24 hr. period) ... AENA staff is refining their Machiavellianism: we have the chance of changing our shifts between colleagues; if you need it (a wedding, school activities with the kids, any other social event …), you can ask a mate to work in your place a certain day. AENA staff has to approve these shift changes. What they also do, every now and then, is endorse you an express (mandatory recall) shift precisely on those days you liberated yourself from work. AENA is the absolute owners of your life, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Take note, if you are offered an ATC job in Spain abroad, of what some of your conditions would be.

I will try to clarify the direct routing/non-filed FL point regarding our present situation: sector capacity has been put to a strain since late 2009 in Spain. On December 28th, 2009 (Spanish “Fools Day”), Spanish ATC Authority declared that the Maximum Sector Capacity (MSC) would result from increasing a 10% the Declared Sector Capacity (DSC) during a period not superior to 1 hour. This means that in Spain, sector traffic is not regulated until it´s capacity is expected to pass 110% declared capacity. For example, in my ACC, we have sectors with a DSC of 35 TFCs/hr: a regulation is not imposed until 39 TFCs/hr are expected. Often in summer (very often indeed …) those sectors work with 38 TFCs/hr: any direct routing, or takeoff before CTOT, or not-expected FL can mean a serious overload. ATCO´s in that situation are helpless, and do their best to solve a situation that, this is the funny part, probably has been caused by a good-willing colleague in a previous sector.

You already know about the Eurocontrol document regardingFlight Plan & ATFCM Adherence (EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence). There´s another Spanish document which also enforces this matter. It is the response of Mr. Juan Alberto Cózar Maldonado (AENA´s Quality, Safety and Certification Director) to Mr. Juan Rosas Díaz (AESA´s Safety Director), dated on april 15th, 2010. This is an excerpt:

“(…) Note that these failures in FMS (Flow Management System) are not caused by the FMS itself; overloads mentioned are caused by diverse factors, like shortcuts in their expected routes, clearance to FL´s not filed in their FP´s, and takeoffs before their calculated takeoff time, all these acts cause that certain sectors receive more TFC´s than expected, at a different timing than that calculated by FMS”

I can scan the document if needed, just need to know how to post it if you want.


All Spanish controllers receive a very big book when they start working, called RCA (Air Circulation Regulation). It is our Bible, it´s the RULE we legally have to follow in our job. There is an Air Safety Law (LSA) from 2003, that can impose very high economic penalties over ATCO´s that don´t work BY THE RULE in case there is an incident/accident. We shouldn´t be ranted for following the RULE. And for all those pilots all of a sudden worried about saving the planet, mostly from UK (in their profile), want to talk about BP and the Gulf of Mexico for a change?


I´ve noticed 3 types of response to our situation from readers of this forum:

• Understanding: what can I say, “thank you so much!” (specially 10W for his great contributions) It is very rewarding to see the important part of the message (the one regarding SAFETY) has been delivered. We can live with lower salaries, we can work with not so good T&C´s, but all this abuse must stop, ´cause it´s affecting our work in a very negative way. And the consequences are just starting to be noticed.
• Jealousy?? Some keep on talking about high salaries and good T&C´s, even as an excuse for the present punishment against ATCO´s. They keep ignoring that all the “good times” WERE, and ARE NOT any more, and that even in the past, it was AENA´s decision to pay for overtime instead of hiring new controllers. The media campaign Spanish government and AENA conducted against us in the national and international arena should be studied in the future as an extraordinary example of how to plant false statements prior to a governmental abuse. Once again, imposed arbitrary working conditions that come very close to SLAVERY, can only harm the SAFETY of air traffic in Spain.
• HATE: some examples from the thread http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-6.html :

“Just wish some of there controller's could speak proper English that's understandable and actually speak into the microphone on the headset rather than talking into a bucket...” Whispering Giant

"and in Madrid, I have witnessed some of the worst ATC in Europe, from some of the most highly paid.”
"When flying, turns away of 90 degrees to allow spanish aircraft over/undertake. So frustrating but sadly you grow to accept that this is the Spanish way."
“They are the worlds most skilled controllers - at diverting other aircraft off track so that Spanish aircraft can over/undertake!
If only they were fair and honourable in their activities; they would then be respected by all, rather than laughed at.”
"and in Madrid, I have witnessed some of the worst ATC in Europe, from some of the most highly paid."
"In Madrid you guys always put SO much effort into vectoring non spanish aircraft to allow spanish aircraft to jump the queue! if you used those skills with your general controlling, the flow rates would improve massively."
"For me and all my colleagues, the ATC in Madrid is a joke, a sad one at that.
No respect for you guys whatsoever." kick the tires

“Are Spanish ATC really among the best paid in Europe while being (one of) the worst on the European continent? What a waste of money, I'd say!” sabenaboy

"10W you put a good case forward for why adherence to flight plans is important. However in this case I think it misses the point. Our Spanish colleagues are not doing this to fix the system. They are doing this because it supports their dispute with the Spanish government to protect the kind of things that are ironically refered to worldwide in industrial relations language as 'spanish practices'." lederhosen

"if the Germans and French and Swiss and even the Italians can get English down and use it why cant the Spanish controllers! there a joke."
“there a bunch of useless ****s”
"the bigger issue for me is THEY CANT SPEAK ENGLISH!"
"but they really really cant understand English."
"but I would trust my wallet to a Gypsy before I trust my life to air tragedy in spain! there a bunch of useless ****s" zerotohero

"The level of maturity of some ATCO's in the south of Europe is directly proportional to their english level." maybepilot

"Thought it was because of my callsign! Full sids and stars into Madrid with lights traffic. Was also denied a higher cruise level because we were filed at a lower level!! Totally unprofessional." TolTol

"It's a bunch of amateurs taking care of serious business." Fuel Dump

Come on! We are not all that bad, are we? Anyway, no comments on this from me, guess I received a “different” education from my family, because there´s nothing personal in the previos example, uh guys?

Give a look to the trailer of a documentary financed by some Spanish ATCO´s. It´s still a teaser, and only in Spanish, but you can see the faces of some of my colleagues. Who knows, some may even consider the idea that we are human beings after all!

www.youtube.com/v/zLy1LHrqsHY


Saludos!

perez - an interesting if one sided posting.

Why have you chosen not to comment on the 'hate' postings? Do you not recognise the comments and situations?

I think a more appropriate title would be "frustrations' rather than hate.

Kick the tyres, I have no problems in commenting the "hate" postings, and no, I don't recognize the comments and situations.

- First of all, nobody is perfect and EVERYBODY makes mistakes. Spanish ATCOS could also write a veeeeeery long list of complaints about pilots (spanish and from abroad).

- About our english, well it's very easy to criticize being from the UK... My english will obviously not be as good as yours no matter how hard I try, but I don't see those communication problems in my ACC. I could also complain about english speaking pilots not sticking to standard aeronautical english and of non-english speaking pilots with a very poor level of english. And sometimes the "station calling say again" has nothing to do with our level of english but with the poor quality of our radios or because we were busy coordinating with other sectors/controllers (yes, controllers also speak between them). By the way, we were required a very high level of english when we got in, but in ten years working in AENA I haven't received any training to maintain my level of english (and believe me, I don't intend to spend my 2 days off out of every 33 attending english classes).

- Spanish aircraft don't have priority, whoever has to be first will be first no matter the nationality (check the "you know you work in atc when" thread, about pilots being like kids...)

- The procedures in Spain are awful, but that's not our fault, we are also victims.

- About making the full SIDs and STARs and sticking strictly to the final flight level in the FPL, we've been threatened by AENA to BE FIRED if we don't comply. And in the current situation in which our sectors are constantly being overloaded, I just can't risk to give a direct to somebody and cause an overload to a colleague (I'm also an overloaded sector sufferer). We are working in the limit and precisely yesterday I suffered a very critical situation while working due to this.


And I could keep on writing, but I have to spend some time with my baby son before I go back to work in a few hours (again).

I`m disgusted in seeing how bad things have gone in spain,but I`m even more disgusted in seeing that nobody OUTSIDE spain has done anything to support our spanish colleagues.

we`re here talking about single sky,bla bla and all that cr@p,but still nobody is going to help them.

their problem could become our problem one day,and if we don`t help each other there`s no way we`ll all live a better life.

greetz