Deconfliction
 

Thanks Vortex issues, that's all I need.

I'd be cautious in generalising about how well gliders show on primary radar. My experience suggests that some gliders are detected on some types of primary radar.

Primary radar
 

Sounds like BoW has a point. It's not a great place for airliners to be, in among the plastic aircraft.

Bugoutwest is right to be concerned about CAT flying outside CAS, in a busy part of the country, at levels used by light aircraft (including gliders). If CAS is available it should be used. Flying over a busy gliding site or aerodrome at these sort of altitudes and speeds, in an unmanoeverable jet is pretty poor airmanship. Airline pilots will not be keeping a good lookout and they are unlikely to be supplied with a deconfliction service (particularly in an area of high traffic density). Gliders do not always show on primary radar and when they do, are often mistaken as clutter or simply ignored by ATCOs. Some of the comments in reply to Bugout (while probably technically correct) show naivety and a lack of appreciation.

I don't think many CAT pilots would do it out of choice.

Ops tells you to shift an airframe the IFR flight plan gets submitted a couple of hours slot comes up on it due to flow restriction in an area sector. The aircraft is required 30 mins ago to be somewhere. Crew get told to take it VFR. Its legal so you have to do it or risk having a no tea and biscuits or possibly worse.

Until the ANO is changed so its not legal, it will continue to happen whatever the opinion of pilots or ATCO's.

Could I suggest that the mixing of operations may not necessarily be the problem? I learnt to fly in an environment where many different types of aircraft were mixed with many other types. Uncontrolled airspace almost did not exist - but the freedom of VFR flying was still preserved away from terminal areas.

If the glider and airline are both in receipt of a suitable ATC service, could adaquate separation be performed? The fact that the glider is nearly always invisible on radar may be a problem if the glider issues inaccurate position reports? Or is the fitting of a mode-C/S transponder feasible?

Glider kit
 

I suspect that many gliders don't have radios, let alone transponders: weight is a major consideration as well as cost.

I've flown in Florida as well, fuzzy, and I know that you mean about the many different types, but there are 2 differences, I reckon: most light aircraft get a traffic or deconfliction service (from what I used to hear on the radio with Jacksonville Centre) and all military are flying IFR, even at low level, unless they're in the range or the manoeuvring areas (TMAs).

Tcu:Two days gone and no ATCO responses to that? - c'mon guys!
NS

> Two days gone and no ATCO responses to that?

No €€€. No incentive. No talk. :}

Well, I'm an ex-controller....and bored for a few minutes - will I do?

I spent many years working traffic in a mixed airspace environment (inside and outside CAS, and a variety of different classes) with areas which respectively attracted mil and GA aircraft and gliders. What the controller sees on radar depends on the type of radar and the aircraft characteristics.

One primary radar that I used was excellent at displaying gliders - and anyone with the right knowledge and training could easily be pretty sure they were looking at a glider rather than clutter (just as they could recognise angels, anaprop and other common radar artefacts). And no-one I know ignored the targets that were displayed - they may not have provided a service in an area where there were multiple targets, but they did not ignore them.

This particular radar was not heavily processed and so all of these things could be seen on the display. However, other processing systems typically used today are designed to filter out anything that isn't deemed to be a 'proper' (and I mean no disrespect to pilots who fly things that might not fall into this category) aircraft.

With heavily processed primary,gliders could be partially visible to completely gone depending on the RAG map setting.When they are visible then thermalling gliders look like a windfarm.Single gliders can be mistaken for spurious because the of the low speed and intermittent returns.Some high performance ones like the ASH25 can show,where as the old K8 no chance.
I didn't ignore them.Just vectored the pilot around what I could see,or downgraded the service.If VFRs wanted to overfly the gliding site,then here's their frequency,and the pilot can talk to them.Class G :hmm:

Easyjet (and other airlines) frequently operate crew-only positioning flights into Lasham airfield for maintenance, this being the busiest gliding site in the country. Sometimes they do a visual approach, mostly it's an SRA, but except when Farnborough is closed ie roughly 10pm - 7am weekdays or 8pm - 8am weekends, they are operating under at least traffic service. If the operators and their insurance companies are happy with this, then BugOutWest should accept it's not an unusual or dangerous situation.

Little aircraft should be kept well away from big ones.

Don't let those pesky B737 or A320s anywhere near an A380. They should have separate airfields and separate zones and only the little ones (B737 and A320) should be allowed to fly over peoples back gardens.

:)

Co-operation
 

That sounds like a good bit of co-operation, chevvron.

I should be surprised if that happens around my neck of the woods, though.

seems to be related to the Protocol thread

Atlantic Airlines mixing it with gliders etc ...
 

Hmmm, since my last post I have discovered radarvirtuel.com. From this I managed to find the flight parameters of an Atlantic Airlines B733 (?) flying on an easterly heading over Gransden glider site at between 2,500 and 3,000ft at around 1632Z today.

I wasn't there at the time, but I saw the aircraft from my garden. It was too far away to be a nuisance, of course, but I was extremely concerned at the aircraft's height -- particularly since my son was gliding at that airfield only a few hours earlier.

Again, flying an airliner in open airspace in the vicinity of gliders which are virtually invisible to radar, and which are very difficult to pick up visually is for me extremely poor airmanship.

Any dissenters?

BoW

What exactly do you expect us to do about it Bug?

Current climate of jobs and ops asked me to do it. I would give the choice of doing it or looking for another job along with the othr 1-2k pilots out of work in the UK a good thinking about for all of half a second then agree to do it.

There are quiet a few place round the UK where airliners mix with GA and gliders in Class G. In fact if you wanted to ban it you would cut off the whole of the North and West of Scotland.

Its the company's you will have to speak to/ or make life difficult (through your MP maybe) to get any changes. ATCO's can't stop the practise and for every pilot that refuses to do it there are another 3 who would be quite happy to operate to get a job.

Don't worry, chevvers, they get a Traffic Service when Farnborough is closed..... ;)

If the comment above is accurate then the airliner pilots involved are very brave. Gransden Lodge is a notified cable launch site to 3,000' above surface (250').

Snapshot of the RadarVirtuel picture
 

Well, I've grabbed a snapshot of the Atlantic Airlines track off RadarVirtuel website. Jim59. I'm not sure that it's going to work as a link.

I'm not sure that "brave" is a good way to describe this sort of flight path. He/she might have considered it safe because it was late on a Saturday afternoon. Perhaps Stansted had ascertained that gliding had finished for the day, but I really don't think that an airliner should be there.

BoW

Picasa Web Albums - cmacdb - Airliner tracks