Jan. 2010 Aerodrome Course in Hurn
 

I read a post in Nats "Departure Lounge" today whereby a student due to start on the Aerodrome course in Jan. 2010 has been moved onto the Area course in Feb. 2010 due to (as he states) The Aero course being cancelled!! Can anyone shed anymore light on this?? Please say it aint so! :confused:

Cheers.

Very possible.......If there's deemed to be no need for airport trainees in June 2010 then there's no need for a course to start in January 2010.

It has happened before.

Gonzo,
The Oct. 09' was cancelled, Jan. 10' is looking ominous and from the way the "Departure Lounge" post was put the following course in April 10' will be cancelled too!! What's going on? Are things really that serious?? I thought that there is a real shortage of controllers in the U.K.? :ugh:

I hope this doesn't get people that are already in the Area course pushed to a different date.

Duplicate post, but seemed appropriate
 

I'm rather afraid to say the rumours are true. NATS have cancelled the January and April Aero courses (so that's 222 and 223). Currently 224 is penciled in for July, and I think a few of the people supposed to be on 222 have requested a hold until then.

The reason given, as I understand it, is that the economic climate has meant a drop in flights and that combined with high pass rates on the last few Aero courses has resulted in a glut of controllers.

Bearing in mind its 18 months before you get your validated controller I guess NATS have a tough job trying to predict demand down the line.

It's the aerodrome courses that ultimately go on to do approach isn't it?

Given that it looks like we're about to start assessing the Swanwick cleaners for suitability soon as we're getting so short of LHR approach controllers this doesn't appear very far sighted...

Whitelighter, with all due respect, the success rates sound very dodgy to me! To sum up; Aerodrome Oct.221-cancelled, Jan.222-cancelled, April 223-cancelled.

8 or 9 students passed Jan. 218, I'm not sure about April 219 and I believe there was around/over a 50% failure/re-course rate for July 220. Some of these successes may not even validate at their Units. I'd like to know if there's any A.T.C.O.'s willing to comment on the short to medium term flow of trainees from College to Unit? Anyway, I'm off to watch The Deerhunter. :suspect:

No problem, just keep reducing those required manning levels. With the traffic downturn and the introduction of new technology, LL APP will shortly be a 'one man and his dog' position. The dog (needed for breaks/backup) shall only be required to be 'in the vicinity of' the South of England. :hmm:

I received the call yesterday saying the Jan course that I was on is now no more. I've opted for Area, since that was my original thought when I looked into NATS, and start in Feb.

As an aside, I have witnessed similiar moves by the RAF in the last ten years, and it has almost always been short sighted and created new issues further down the line. Understandably, it is an incredibly difficult thing to predict but cancelling courses up to (and possibly including) July seems knee-jerk.

I obviously lack the 'big-picture' and will resist the urge to speculate further.

From what I gathered from my phone call yesterday, July is by no means certain. I hope those of you holding out get what you want in the end.

cottam approach - NATS is very short sighted, especially when it comes to trainees. We need a fair trickle to come through as it takes so long to validate, especially on the Area side. NATS has always been boom and bust - in 2001 the course sizes doubled and students at Hurn were workng shifts... until NATSD realise it was counter productive and suddenly cottoned on to the fact that if the pass rate was as normal, there would be a lot of hold-overs at units before live training could commence :ugh:

Not just man-power either though - some important projects have been pushed to one side because the traffic levels have dropped... despite the fact that now is the ideal time to get the airspoace sorted before the traffic hits us (and we are more able to spare people from the Ops room at the moment to work on projects).

That said, it is a good company to work for - led by donkeys but the lower levels are staffed by very good people.

Wouldn't be surprised if all non-ACC training will be eventually outsourced.
Judging by what you get charged at the "non NATS" colleges for an aerodrome + approach ticket (30-40 k), and what NERL charge the units for a trainee delivered from college (xxx k), it's a no brainer for an increasingly cost-cutting stricken NSL !

Good luck to those just starting, or about to start their NATS adventure. Not the best time in history to join a "World Leader in Air Traffic Management"...

Incidentally... what do the several Band 5 instructors and "above band 5" training delivery managers do while there's no training being delivered ??

Seems very shortsighted. Although if you are a cynic, it may make more sense. At the moment we are led to believe that NSL units are manned at a not too bad level. At the same time, most NSL units, especially the regional ones, are going through reviews to drive more efficiency and maybe even reduce the required ATCO numbers.

So, we have an "ok" (from a management viewpoint) level of staffing. And going forward we will be more efficient with WPs etc. Ergo, we don't need ADI trainees, so we cancel courses. This obviously doesn't take into account sickness, retirements, resignations, medical lossses, but then, they are management, we can't expect them to plan ahead!

Fast forward to when the traffic picks up, and those retirements etc have happened. We now need a good few ADI trainees. But alas the college hasn't been doing too much ADI training of late and isn't geared up for a large throughput. So as an interim measure it can be outsourced. And that (or more importantly what we are seeing now) is the beginning of the end for ADI training at Hurn.

But then again maybe I'm just a cynic. Whatever, this is yet another shortsighted move by management with short term gains and very little thought for the future. But are we surprised?

All I know is that is what I have been told by NATS. Whether or not you choose to beleive anything I guess is up to you

Wonder if they'll bump some of us already on the Feb Area course? sure that NATS told me there were only 20 places on the area course and 14 on the aerodrome course.

Must be some bumping to be done- hopefully first come first served as i'd be ok then.

Anyone know when the next Area course is after Feb?

They are definately 'bumping'. I was told I had a secure place on the Feb area course because i'd been waiting so long; it's probably the same for all Jan aerodrome guys that have elected to switch to area so there will be alot of shuffling of places.

I believe that there are 4 courses per year. Guessing, i'd say the next area after Feb will be May. Solid maths, I know. If only I could figure out my 6 times table.................

LEGAL TENDER has hit the nail on the head. We have two staff either on, or due for the ADC course. Both are being sent to a certain college in Wales for their courses. Reasons: 1. It's much cheaper. 2. It's a shorter course. 3. They can be fitted in immediately with no p*ssing about. Perfect for what we want.

Of course, that means Hurn has two less people requiring training, which means more likelihood of cancelled courses due lack of demand. Either the college will be out of business soon, or NATS will insist on accepting only those who have passed through Hurn.

About a year ago NATS were looking into the possibility of buying/merging with C*mbran. Doesn't seem to have been much progress there.

Area courses are starting in Feb, April and June. I was told at stage 3 of selection last week that if I get through I'd have to wait until June. Seemed like quite a long wait, but I wonder if we were told that in anticipation of this anouncement... I dearly hope it was otherwise "bumping" could mean waiting until Oct/Nov :(

I spoke with HR today. They said that at the moment they are seeing how many of the Approach participants will want to switch to Area. If bumping is required they will ask for volunteers from the area course. If they don't get enough then they will have to bump people.

radarman, let me get this right. You are at a Nats unit with 2 staff (presumably either ATSAs or radar valid) that are starting their ADC training at BAe Cwmbran to then return to Nats after college ?
It must be an absolute first ??? Clearly a sign of things to come...

Legal Tender,

You understand correct about the NATS employees being sent to Cwmbran with the idea being they return to NATS afterwards. One at least is radar valid having been through Hurn and passing the 2007 Basic course and APS.

SH