So- who looks down on who?
 

Before i start really wanting to get into ATC, i'm wondering if anyone can tell me what the perceptions are within ATCO world and why.

what is seen as a "better" optino- aerodrome? Area? Oceanic?

is there a huge gap between management and ATCOs?

do most ATCOs want to move to management, or do they stay within pute ATC?

Are some places renowned as being great places to work, and others not?

what would be the "plum" job straight from training and what would be considered the worst?

Is there an "ultimate" role that ATCOs aspire to?

Retirement........

+1 on that.

wow you guys know how to motivate someone :eek:

Lesson 1

We`re a cynical bunch.

Retirement and some sort of scraped together pension if that were ever to exist when I go, oh and for management to crawl back under their rocks and leave us alone.

oddly enough i can't help but think that a lot of you a whining bastewards! (and yeah i really know how to make friends and influence people lol)

pensions look acceptable, pay is moderate to very good (depending on who you beleive), time off looks good.

I've just sold my own businesses and have worked on average 80hrs/week for 7 years (peaking at 104hrs/week for 9 months and dropiing as low as 65hrs/week at one point).

Had no pension or guarantee or wage increase and when the businesses sold it took much longer and i got much less than i would have 12months ago- because of the credit crunch.

From where i'm sitting working as an ATCO seems fairly cushty!

p.s. getting a job at the moment is like pulling teeth, so if you have a secure job you are phenomonally lucky!

Yeah an ATCO job is really bloody 'cushty'. Thats why there is a world shortage of us and the pass rate is so bad..... it must be really really 'cushty'.
If everyone could do it, the pay, conditions etc would be half of what we get.
If you fancy your chances pugwash.... put your money where your mouth is and come give it a try.
Its very easy looking from the sideline and giving criticism about a lot of things you dont know the ins and outs of, pay, pensions etc.....

Pugwash4x4

Get a job flying. 200K a year as a B777 Captain. See the world, hot climates, and hot chicks :ok:

So can i infer that the pay and conditions are actually ok and quite acceptable for the job you do?

if this is the case why are you all going on about retirement?

i don't for one minute think that the job is easy (god i really hope it isn't otherwise i'm wasting my time), but i'm also hoping that not everyone hates the role, and is just waiting for retirement

which is what all the replies on this thread have said so far.

you notice that i didn't criticise the work that ATCOs do, more the attitude on this thread, taht seems to be: its dreadful we all want to retire.

please please please tell me that not all ATCOs feel like this?

Judging by your posts so far I don't think you'd be cut out for the job.......too much of an attitude problem ! :E

Yeah my last post didn' quite come out as it was meant to- far too agressive.

There does seem to be a lot of of negativety on these threads about being an ATCO- is this perceived or true?

i always thought ATC was much more close knit than it is coming across, with mostly contented staff, and a job which is interesting, varied challenging in equal measure, along with pay that fairly reflects the undoubted skills and job stressed that an ATCO faces.

is this no longer the reality? or have i always had rose tinted spectacles?

no, you are quite right, the job is well paid there is loads of time off, the atcos i work with are all a good laugh. the job is easy once you are valid. but as soon as you step away from the radar you are confronted with twats trying to ruin what is a good job. messing with the pension, promoting doom and gloom so they can shirk giving a pay rise, back slapping each other about inferior projects etc etc etc.


I

"Look down on"?
 

Pug:
First, it was you who chose the negative wording and attitude in your first post to start the thread. So be prepared to catch what you throw.
Having said that, here are some answers that many ATCO's would likely agree with . . .

"what is seen as a "better" option- aerodrome? Area? Oceanic?"
The answer is the same for ATCO's as it would be for cops, pilots, school teachers or whomever: Depends on the individual. We all have different likes / dislikes and aptitudes. I spent time in every aspect of ATC and enjoyed all of it, but preferred busy tower ops; others really enjoy the challenge of an approach radar position (for instance). Still others revel in the unique challenges of procedural control (witchcraft).

"is there a huge gap between management and ATCOs?"
If you are referring to pay and benefits, the answer is "no." If you are referring to respective philosophies, attitudes to work, etc, then the answer is (all too often) "yes." And the larger the ATC facility, the more likely the management have lost touch with (or never were in touch with) what ATCO's really do. Having said that, the relationships between ATCOs themselves, is most often excellent. There is, in almost all ops rooms and tower cabs, an air of respect and camaraderie (though we controllers often prefer the sort of camaraderie that wolf cubs enjoy. It's "rough and tumble" and requires thick skin, humour, and humility).

"do most ATCOs want to move to management, or do they stay within pute ATC?"
Assuming the word is "pure" (which, in reference to ATCOs, is clearly an oxymoron . . .) the general answer is this: Most ATCOs remain as controllers, or operational supervisors, for their entire career. Without going into the reasons that those who choose management do so, I'll stick to the more positive reasons that most ATCOs remain as ATCOs: As long as one's medical holds out, and the brain continues to function well enough to keep the airframes or targets apart in a safe -- and reasonably efficient -- manner, there is no more enjoyable and rewarding job in the ATC system. IMO, one of the best aspects of an ATCO's job is this: When the shift is over, the work is over. Period. When you unplug that headset and walk away, all your work is done. As an operational controller, when you come to work for your next shift, time starts again; no memos in an "inbox", no phone calls to customers, no letters to write, etc. You go home each day having completed all your tasks -- the work doesn't carry over from day to day. It's a benefit that very few jobs have, and it's because controlling aircraft is one of the few truly "operational" jobs left in the world.

"Are some places renowned as being great places to work, and others not?"
Yes. But that changes with time -- and is also subjective. so now is not the time for you to be thinking about that. Do you want to try this job or not?

"what would be the "plum" job straight from training and what would be considered the worst?"
Again, different for each person. Some ATCOs would be delighted to spend their whole career in a laid-back, not too busy control tower at Upper Rubber Wellington Airport. Most want to be at least somewhat challenged in their daily work -- and don't get this wrong: those challenges and surprises can happen anywhere, anytime. Generally, this statement can be made: If what you want to do is learn most about all aspects of ATC early in your career, then a posting to a tower at a reasonably busy regional airport is a great start. You not only learn, you gain confidence. And it's that confidence that will allow you to progress to other ATC locations and challenges (if you wish).
The worst job straight from training would be sitting on a bench in the park reading the job ads. Second worst would be approach control or ground control at Heathrow, O'Hare, or Atlanta -- but I wouldn't worry about that just yet. ;)

"Is there an "ultimate" role that ATCOs aspire to?"
Yes, there are three. In the short term it's to unplug that headset at the end of each day voluntarily -- without having to fill in forms relating to an accident or incident. The more long term ultimate roles are:
1. to be the guest of honour at an ATC retirement party.
2. many years of monthly get-togethers at The Local, discussing The Good Old Days with fellow retired ATCOs.

Over.

Hi Grizzled,

Thanks for such a long reply- apologies if my initial post seemed negative- it wasn't meant to be! The topic title was utterly tonque in cheek.

For someone who in reality knows very very little about ATCO work (as in what ATCOs actually think of day to day work, as opposed to what recruitment consultants say), i have found it very hard to get a handle on what makes ATCOs tick and whether i would fit into the workplace and enjoy the work- no one wants to spend 3 years training only to find that the job is made so difficult by senoir managers that its not enjoyable- neither does anyone want to be stuck in the arse end of nowhere because they never asked where thebest places to work are!

It reassuring to hear that there is at some point the chance of following what you enjoy- being at the very earliest poitn of the recruitment process all us potential employees hear is that you don't get any influene in where you end up, or even in which role you end up. It starts to get slightly off putting, so i thought i would ask some questions!

Its also nice to know that most ATCOs will stay as ATCOs as long as possible- this means that the job is interesting and people stay as long as possible- as everyone i have ever spoken to/met who is an ATCO seems highly literate and well educated, its nice to hear that they aren't getting bored after a few years and disappearing.

FWIW the job sounds absolutely brilliant, but i wanted to try and get an idea of some of the more negative aspects of the job early on so i don't enter the profession with false impressions of the work.

Often dealing with office politics is harder than doing the job itself!

Cheers

Jim

Pugwash.....
What is your age ?

29 going on 12 having just read back my posts on this thread :bored: :ugh:

Give it a try
 

Jim,
I'm sure most of us have looked back at some of our posts and grimaced a tad.

Remember this bit of wisdom (not mine to claim but, from experience, I endorse it): Our biggest regrests are not so much the things we did in our lives, but the things we didn't do.

Grizz

Pugwash,

If you're not sure whether this is the career for you, or what it's like to work for NATS, why not set up a couple of visits to NATS sites?

It will be beneficial if you get far enough in the application process, but may also help you decide if you think you'd fit in and be happy. From the ATCOs that I've met and chatted to, they're very upfront if you ask them what things are like (and perhaps won't sugar coat it like some recruitment bods).

Just a thought!

Well said Grizzled- i'm all for taking any oppotunities when you see them- theres no point lying on your death bed regretting that you didn't do something

"regret the things you did, not the the things you never had the balls to do"

Hey Paperclip 810- good idea and something that i am really keen to do- but i thought i should find out if i could past the stage 1 first- theres no point wasting everyones time if i can't even manage to get over the first hurdle!

Is it difficult to arrange visits?

i'm 98% sure its a career that i would enjoy- but need to convince the last 2% of me!

I thought it was obvious, the Tower Controllers look down on everyone.:ok:

Pugwash

Don't be put off by some of the negativity that's doing the rounds in NATS at the moment, they offer excellent training and far better salaries than the majority of regional airports who employ their own atcos, but like a lot of the outside world, things are changing within the organisation.
I won't go into that 'cos you can read all about it elsewhere in this forum, but in your position I'd still go for NATS training if you can.
It's bloody hard work and only a few get selected each year, fewer come out of the college fully qualified, you don't get a choice as to where you want to go and the validation process isn't exactly a stroll in the park - but then again it's not meant to be, only the best are required.

I now work at a regional airport where I am employed by the airport owners, I thoroughly enjoy the variation in the work, it's well paid, good roster and I work with some great people.

There are training opportunities outwith NATS, but they're difficult to come by and if you want to move on + upward within ATC and perhaps management, NATS is definately the option to choose as the pay generally matches the responsibility - unlike in non NATS organisations.

You face a couple of years of very hard work, after which you'll be in a job you'll probably never want to leave.

pugwash,

I'm sure some doubt comes into everyone's mind at some point, especially when the pass rate is mentioned - even if you get to college, will you make it back out still as a NATS employee?!

Visits are relatively easy to organise as long as you're willing to be flexible and travel a bit. I'd suggest a visit to both an aerodrome site and either Prestwick/Swanwick (and there are of course other non-NATS aerodrome locations too...). If you make it through the selection process, you'll be asked whether you would *prefer* Aero or Area (no guarantees!) - so it's best to see what they both do.

Either ask around on here (or in the interview thread) or contact HR who can put you in touch with the right people.

For what its worth, I love this job (ATCO) and all the ratings I use. I can't think of anything I would rather do. ..Well maybe a high class naughty film director. (Did I say that out loud?).
There is a lot of training involved, and annual checks for the rest of your career. But its a job that most enjoy getting up in the morning or evening (depending on shifts) for.
Money is ok. But although necessary, its not what motivates me.

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/WipeButt.gif

A finely honed bullsh*t detector will get you far in this job as well........... :rolleyes:

Hey Rule3 . . .
 

You forgot about AWACS. ;)

Sounds like a management spy to me: part of the negotiation tactics!

I do haev very very strong feelings about the public sector, and i'm not apologetic about them. Mainly feel that the public sector provides essential services which the private sector shouldn't, but that it is a horribly bloated, over micro-manager, hideously inefficient throwback to the days of empire. I spent the last 7 years of my life earning (which means producing from nothing), a lot of cash, of which almost half was knicked by the government and wasted.

When times are tight the private sector whinges because it faces ALL the risks of a downturn, having already paid for ALL The benefits during the upturn. The gubbment often forgets that it doesn't earn its own money!

It would seem that like in other service sectors NATS is already being affected by the management culture of the civil service and NHS- ie stick managers in who know nothing, get the job because they have a degree (and i have a very good degree in Accounting and Finance before anyone starts to accuse me of bias), but provide useless management services because they have no experience or real world knowledge. So yes i DO get entirely frustrated with the public sector, and not unreasonably- we do NOT need to give the gubment 46.9% of GDP in order to run the country with hundreds of thousands of managers and "management consultants".

Wow rant over :D

There is one HUGE proviso to that rant- my experience of working in the public sector (having been a officer in the Light Infrantry, and a unpaid consultant in the NHS), is that frontline operational staff often provide brilliant services, but are in almost all cases effectively and completely demorilised by middle management and targets. The Ethos in many gubbment departments is one of rewarding (or at least showing complete indifference to) failure and incompetence, and thus penalising excellence and demorilising all the excellent staff!

What worries me now is that public sector management are attempting to run the services like the private sector- a total impossibility and one destined to failue in my eyes. You need competition to run an organisation effectively for profit (you also need the possibility of abject failure and bankruptcy on one hand, and cash in your pocket on total success!) and the public sector can never have external competition.

Trust me i'm about as far from public sector management as you can get-and Cushty is often used in my circles- mainly because of a mate who is a Saaaaaaaarth Londoner and uses it ALL the time in conversation.

Undoubtedly i will now have upset a darn sight more people- BUT please remember that i am going through the application process of becoming an ATCO, because the people and work look extremely interesting and stimulating. My comments above will, i hope (and in my experience), be echoed by some of you guys already. The private sectors gripe is never with front line staff, but with civil servants and middle managers. If you are frontline staff then i applaud you, if you are management ............well i think you can work out what i think. :mad:

Just my observations, usually someone aspiring to become an ATCO asks more about the job itself than the bull**** you are fishing for.

I'll let you in on a few little hints Pugwash.

Air Traffic Control is the best damn job in the world.......if you can do it. Folk around the world have worked their asses off to attain a licence, and whatever their motivating factor, when even the slightest facet of what we do is called into question, well, it's game on. It's the sundry bullsh*t that we're exposed to that tarnishes the job and causes the negativity (internal politics, lack of communication between the Subject Matter Experts and upper echelons, screwing with pension conditions are just a start)

Many of us on here have seen and helped newbies who would give their left testicle/breast/body part just to get through the selection process. The preparation some of them go through for the selection process is admirable (and sometimes a little frightening........). On the other hand, reading a post from a "maybe applicant" that at face value appears to be hunting for a pecking order in the job, well, that's one of those sundry facets mentioned above that certainly pisses me off. Sure, there's a rivalry in ATC (to be expected with a group of Alpha personalities), but there's too much "us and them" in ATC at the moment and it certainly doesn't need propagating.

This will sound harsh, but I double dog dare you to print your first post and take it with you should you get to interview stage and show it to the interview. Compare it to some of the posts in this thread (link)........

Cushty was used extensively by Del Boy, the only thing he commanded was a reliant robin van, so maybe not the best indication of whethet someone is involved in aviation or not!

Pugwash,

First, get yourself selected.

Then pass the course.

Then get an aerodrome licence. Then validate it.

Then get an approach licence. Then valiate it.

Then get an area licence. Then validate it.

Then get an oceanic licence. Then validate it.

Then nobody will look down on you, and some of us might welcome you as an equal.

Then you can work anywhere in the world and probably earn an awful lot more than you can in the UK.

On the beach :)

Must say thanks for such a great thread! Really made me laugh! :D

oops :ouch:

Am saving my "proper" interest questions until (IF) i pass stage 1- it sounds like a bit of a trial (although not that i expect any of the following 4 years to be any easier of course), so with the best will in the world, there's no point getting too excited until i know i "might" have some chance of actually getting anywhere. After today i'm really not sure about that!

At least on the internet if i post stuff that no one likes, people can ignore me- better than wasting an ATCOs time in the real world i reckon!

This thread was only supposed to be lighthearted- nothing horrifically serious- i think 3 days of cramming and testing have led to a lack of accurate articulation of my feelings- and certainly not enough use of smilies! :(

For once, a serious question:

is this possible to get fully validated in all areas? is it of any benefit? i was under the impression that if you were aerodrome validated you could possibly vaildate to Approach, but NOT area?

Reading this thread i might just go and get myself a JCB and dig myself a bigger hole!

I'll get m' coat............................

pugwash

As you've never actually worked in NATS it may be an idea to talk less and listen more. You are creating crass characterisations and '"front line" versus everyone else' divisions before you've even met one person in the company, in order to try to appease those you've already upset! Incredible. A little more maturity might work.

Pugwash,

It is possible, but you may have to broaden your horizons to more enlightened countries than the UK. The UK is very narrow in its training of ATCOs. After college you are "streamed", which is possibly where your initial impression of "who looks down on whom" originates from. Whereas, elsewhere you get trained in all disciplines, then decide which discipline you are more suited to and end up a far more rounded ATCO. My opinion, of course.

Is it of any benefit?

Well that's up to you to decide. For me, it's allowed me to work at 13 different airports, on 4 continents for 35 years and retire at 55.

On the beach :ok:

No you are trolling...if you were truly interested you would concern yourself with stage 1 items...

did you get a Christmas turkey last year?

Everyone looks down on Point 7..........

(you out there mate?)

PugWash, heres a thought/s. Apply to NATS like most future ATCO's (cos they pay for your training!!) and you never know you might even pass. If you do and you like it - bonus. If you dont like it, keep your JCB and pay for yourself to get whatever licence/course you need to dig holes??!! You never know you might like that instead??

Or educate yourself at the other ATC training establishments outside NATS, fund it yourself (rather expensive though - doh) and hopefully you will still get a licence at the end. At this point you still dont have a job unless you have struck a deal with a non NATS unit before hand. When/If you get a job I hope the job is for you because at this point the large wedge of cash you've just blown could have been used for your JCB thingy-mi-bobby to dig holes!!

P.S Good luck:E:E