So- who looks down on who?
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So- who looks down on who?
Before i start really wanting to get into ATC, i'm wondering if anyone can tell me what the perceptions are within ATCO world and why.
what is seen as a "better" optino- aerodrome? Area? Oceanic?
is there a huge gap between management and ATCOs?
do most ATCOs want to move to management, or do they stay within pute ATC?
Are some places renowned as being great places to work, and others not?
what would be the "plum" job straight from training and what would be considered the worst?
Is there an "ultimate" role that ATCOs aspire to?
what is seen as a "better" optino- aerodrome? Area? Oceanic?
is there a huge gap between management and ATCOs?
do most ATCOs want to move to management, or do they stay within pute ATC?
Are some places renowned as being great places to work, and others not?
what would be the "plum" job straight from training and what would be considered the worst?
Is there an "ultimate" role that ATCOs aspire to?
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Retirement and some sort of scraped together pension if that were ever to exist when I go, oh and for management to crawl back under their rocks and leave us alone.
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oddly enough i can't help but think that a lot of you a whining bastewards! (and yeah i really know how to make friends and influence people lol)
pensions look acceptable, pay is moderate to very good (depending on who you beleive), time off looks good.
I've just sold my own businesses and have worked on average 80hrs/week for 7 years (peaking at 104hrs/week for 9 months and dropiing as low as 65hrs/week at one point).
Had no pension or guarantee or wage increase and when the businesses sold it took much longer and i got much less than i would have 12months ago- because of the credit crunch.
From where i'm sitting working as an ATCO seems fairly cushty!
p.s. getting a job at the moment is like pulling teeth, so if you have a secure job you are phenomonally lucky!
pensions look acceptable, pay is moderate to very good (depending on who you beleive), time off looks good.
I've just sold my own businesses and have worked on average 80hrs/week for 7 years (peaking at 104hrs/week for 9 months and dropiing as low as 65hrs/week at one point).
Had no pension or guarantee or wage increase and when the businesses sold it took much longer and i got much less than i would have 12months ago- because of the credit crunch.
From where i'm sitting working as an ATCO seems fairly cushty!
p.s. getting a job at the moment is like pulling teeth, so if you have a secure job you are phenomonally lucky!
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Yeah an ATCO job is really bloody 'cushty'. Thats why there is a world shortage of us and the pass rate is so bad..... it must be really really 'cushty'.
If everyone could do it, the pay, conditions etc would be half of what we get.
If you fancy your chances pugwash.... put your money where your mouth is and come give it a try.
Its very easy looking from the sideline and giving criticism about a lot of things you dont know the ins and outs of, pay, pensions etc.....
If everyone could do it, the pay, conditions etc would be half of what we get.
If you fancy your chances pugwash.... put your money where your mouth is and come give it a try.
Its very easy looking from the sideline and giving criticism about a lot of things you dont know the ins and outs of, pay, pensions etc.....
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Yeah an ATCO job is really bloody 'cushty'. Thats why there is a world shortage of us and the pass rate is so bad..... it must be really really 'cushty'.
If everyone could do it, the pay, conditions etc would be half of what we get.
If you fancy your chances pugwash.... put your money where your mouth is and come give it a try.
Its very easy looking from the sideline and giving criticism about a lot of things you dont know the ins and outs of, pay, pensions etc.....
If everyone could do it, the pay, conditions etc would be half of what we get.
If you fancy your chances pugwash.... put your money where your mouth is and come give it a try.
Its very easy looking from the sideline and giving criticism about a lot of things you dont know the ins and outs of, pay, pensions etc.....
if this is the case why are you all going on about retirement?
i don't for one minute think that the job is easy (god i really hope it isn't otherwise i'm wasting my time), but i'm also hoping that not everyone hates the role, and is just waiting for retirement
which is what all the replies on this thread have said so far.
you notice that i didn't criticise the work that ATCOs do, more the attitude on this thread, taht seems to be: its dreadful we all want to retire.
please please please tell me that not all ATCOs feel like this?
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Yeah my last post didn' quite come out as it was meant to- far too agressive.
There does seem to be a lot of of negativety on these threads about being an ATCO- is this perceived or true?
i always thought ATC was much more close knit than it is coming across, with mostly contented staff, and a job which is interesting, varied challenging in equal measure, along with pay that fairly reflects the undoubted skills and job stressed that an ATCO faces.
is this no longer the reality? or have i always had rose tinted spectacles?
There does seem to be a lot of of negativety on these threads about being an ATCO- is this perceived or true?
i always thought ATC was much more close knit than it is coming across, with mostly contented staff, and a job which is interesting, varied challenging in equal measure, along with pay that fairly reflects the undoubted skills and job stressed that an ATCO faces.
is this no longer the reality? or have i always had rose tinted spectacles?
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no, you are quite right, the job is well paid there is loads of time off, the atcos i work with are all a good laugh. the job is easy once you are valid. but as soon as you step away from the radar you are confronted with twats trying to ruin what is a good job. messing with the pension, promoting doom and gloom so they can shirk giving a pay rise, back slapping each other about inferior projects etc etc etc.
I
I
"Look down on"?
Pug:
First, it was you who chose the negative wording and attitude in your first post to start the thread. So be prepared to catch what you throw.
Having said that, here are some answers that many ATCO's would likely agree with . . .
"what is seen as a "better" option- aerodrome? Area? Oceanic?"
The answer is the same for ATCO's as it would be for cops, pilots, school teachers or whomever: Depends on the individual. We all have different likes / dislikes and aptitudes. I spent time in every aspect of ATC and enjoyed all of it, but preferred busy tower ops; others really enjoy the challenge of an approach radar position (for instance). Still others revel in the unique challenges of procedural control (witchcraft).
"is there a huge gap between management and ATCOs?"
If you are referring to pay and benefits, the answer is "no." If you are referring to respective philosophies, attitudes to work, etc, then the answer is (all too often) "yes." And the larger the ATC facility, the more likely the management have lost touch with (or never were in touch with) what ATCO's really do. Having said that, the relationships between ATCOs themselves, is most often excellent. There is, in almost all ops rooms and tower cabs, an air of respect and camaraderie (though we controllers often prefer the sort of camaraderie that wolf cubs enjoy. It's "rough and tumble" and requires thick skin, humour, and humility).
"do most ATCOs want to move to management, or do they stay within pute ATC?"
Assuming the word is "pure" (which, in reference to ATCOs, is clearly an oxymoron . . .) the general answer is this: Most ATCOs remain as controllers, or operational supervisors, for their entire career. Without going into the reasons that those who choose management do so, I'll stick to the more positive reasons that most ATCOs remain as ATCOs: As long as one's medical holds out, and the brain continues to function well enough to keep the airframes or targets apart in a safe -- and reasonably efficient -- manner, there is no more enjoyable and rewarding job in the ATC system. IMO, one of the best aspects of an ATCO's job is this: When the shift is over, the work is over. Period. When you unplug that headset and walk away, all your work is done. As an operational controller, when you come to work for your next shift, time starts again; no memos in an "inbox", no phone calls to customers, no letters to write, etc. You go home each day having completed all your tasks -- the work doesn't carry over from day to day. It's a benefit that very few jobs have, and it's because controlling aircraft is one of the few truly "operational" jobs left in the world.
"Are some places renowned as being great places to work, and others not?"
Yes. But that changes with time -- and is also subjective. so now is not the time for you to be thinking about that. Do you want to try this job or not?
"what would be the "plum" job straight from training and what would be considered the worst?"
Again, different for each person. Some ATCOs would be delighted to spend their whole career in a laid-back, not too busy control tower at Upper Rubber Wellington Airport. Most want to be at least somewhat challenged in their daily work -- and don't get this wrong: those challenges and surprises can happen anywhere, anytime. Generally, this statement can be made: If what you want to do is learn most about all aspects of ATC early in your career, then a posting to a tower at a reasonably busy regional airport is a great start. You not only learn, you gain confidence. And it's that confidence that will allow you to progress to other ATC locations and challenges (if you wish).
The worst job straight from training would be sitting on a bench in the park reading the job ads. Second worst would be approach control or ground control at Heathrow, O'Hare, or Atlanta -- but I wouldn't worry about that just yet.
"Is there an "ultimate" role that ATCOs aspire to?"
Yes, there are three. In the short term it's to unplug that headset at the end of each day voluntarily -- without having to fill in forms relating to an accident or incident. The more long term ultimate roles are:
1. to be the guest of honour at an ATC retirement party.
2. many years of monthly get-togethers at The Local, discussing The Good Old Days with fellow retired ATCOs.
Over.
First, it was you who chose the negative wording and attitude in your first post to start the thread. So be prepared to catch what you throw.
Having said that, here are some answers that many ATCO's would likely agree with . . .
"what is seen as a "better" option- aerodrome? Area? Oceanic?"
The answer is the same for ATCO's as it would be for cops, pilots, school teachers or whomever: Depends on the individual. We all have different likes / dislikes and aptitudes. I spent time in every aspect of ATC and enjoyed all of it, but preferred busy tower ops; others really enjoy the challenge of an approach radar position (for instance). Still others revel in the unique challenges of procedural control (witchcraft).
"is there a huge gap between management and ATCOs?"
If you are referring to pay and benefits, the answer is "no." If you are referring to respective philosophies, attitudes to work, etc, then the answer is (all too often) "yes." And the larger the ATC facility, the more likely the management have lost touch with (or never were in touch with) what ATCO's really do. Having said that, the relationships between ATCOs themselves, is most often excellent. There is, in almost all ops rooms and tower cabs, an air of respect and camaraderie (though we controllers often prefer the sort of camaraderie that wolf cubs enjoy. It's "rough and tumble" and requires thick skin, humour, and humility).
"do most ATCOs want to move to management, or do they stay within pute ATC?"
Assuming the word is "pure" (which, in reference to ATCOs, is clearly an oxymoron . . .) the general answer is this: Most ATCOs remain as controllers, or operational supervisors, for their entire career. Without going into the reasons that those who choose management do so, I'll stick to the more positive reasons that most ATCOs remain as ATCOs: As long as one's medical holds out, and the brain continues to function well enough to keep the airframes or targets apart in a safe -- and reasonably efficient -- manner, there is no more enjoyable and rewarding job in the ATC system. IMO, one of the best aspects of an ATCO's job is this: When the shift is over, the work is over. Period. When you unplug that headset and walk away, all your work is done. As an operational controller, when you come to work for your next shift, time starts again; no memos in an "inbox", no phone calls to customers, no letters to write, etc. You go home each day having completed all your tasks -- the work doesn't carry over from day to day. It's a benefit that very few jobs have, and it's because controlling aircraft is one of the few truly "operational" jobs left in the world.
"Are some places renowned as being great places to work, and others not?"
Yes. But that changes with time -- and is also subjective. so now is not the time for you to be thinking about that. Do you want to try this job or not?
"what would be the "plum" job straight from training and what would be considered the worst?"
Again, different for each person. Some ATCOs would be delighted to spend their whole career in a laid-back, not too busy control tower at Upper Rubber Wellington Airport. Most want to be at least somewhat challenged in their daily work -- and don't get this wrong: those challenges and surprises can happen anywhere, anytime. Generally, this statement can be made: If what you want to do is learn most about all aspects of ATC early in your career, then a posting to a tower at a reasonably busy regional airport is a great start. You not only learn, you gain confidence. And it's that confidence that will allow you to progress to other ATC locations and challenges (if you wish).
The worst job straight from training would be sitting on a bench in the park reading the job ads. Second worst would be approach control or ground control at Heathrow, O'Hare, or Atlanta -- but I wouldn't worry about that just yet.
"Is there an "ultimate" role that ATCOs aspire to?"
Yes, there are three. In the short term it's to unplug that headset at the end of each day voluntarily -- without having to fill in forms relating to an accident or incident. The more long term ultimate roles are:
1. to be the guest of honour at an ATC retirement party.
2. many years of monthly get-togethers at The Local, discussing The Good Old Days with fellow retired ATCOs.
Over.
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Hi Grizzled,
Thanks for such a long reply- apologies if my initial post seemed negative- it wasn't meant to be! The topic title was utterly tonque in cheek.
For someone who in reality knows very very little about ATCO work (as in what ATCOs actually think of day to day work, as opposed to what recruitment consultants say), i have found it very hard to get a handle on what makes ATCOs tick and whether i would fit into the workplace and enjoy the work- no one wants to spend 3 years training only to find that the job is made so difficult by senoir managers that its not enjoyable- neither does anyone want to be stuck in the arse end of nowhere because they never asked where thebest places to work are!
It reassuring to hear that there is at some point the chance of following what you enjoy- being at the very earliest poitn of the recruitment process all us potential employees hear is that you don't get any influene in where you end up, or even in which role you end up. It starts to get slightly off putting, so i thought i would ask some questions!
Its also nice to know that most ATCOs will stay as ATCOs as long as possible- this means that the job is interesting and people stay as long as possible- as everyone i have ever spoken to/met who is an ATCO seems highly literate and well educated, its nice to hear that they aren't getting bored after a few years and disappearing.
FWIW the job sounds absolutely brilliant, but i wanted to try and get an idea of some of the more negative aspects of the job early on so i don't enter the profession with false impressions of the work.
Often dealing with office politics is harder than doing the job itself!
Cheers
Jim
Thanks for such a long reply- apologies if my initial post seemed negative- it wasn't meant to be! The topic title was utterly tonque in cheek.
For someone who in reality knows very very little about ATCO work (as in what ATCOs actually think of day to day work, as opposed to what recruitment consultants say), i have found it very hard to get a handle on what makes ATCOs tick and whether i would fit into the workplace and enjoy the work- no one wants to spend 3 years training only to find that the job is made so difficult by senoir managers that its not enjoyable- neither does anyone want to be stuck in the arse end of nowhere because they never asked where thebest places to work are!
It reassuring to hear that there is at some point the chance of following what you enjoy- being at the very earliest poitn of the recruitment process all us potential employees hear is that you don't get any influene in where you end up, or even in which role you end up. It starts to get slightly off putting, so i thought i would ask some questions!
Its also nice to know that most ATCOs will stay as ATCOs as long as possible- this means that the job is interesting and people stay as long as possible- as everyone i have ever spoken to/met who is an ATCO seems highly literate and well educated, its nice to hear that they aren't getting bored after a few years and disappearing.
FWIW the job sounds absolutely brilliant, but i wanted to try and get an idea of some of the more negative aspects of the job early on so i don't enter the profession with false impressions of the work.
Often dealing with office politics is harder than doing the job itself!
Cheers
Jim
Give it a try
Jim,
I'm sure most of us have looked back at some of our posts and grimaced a tad.
Remember this bit of wisdom (not mine to claim but, from experience, I endorse it): Our biggest regrests are not so much the things we did in our lives, but the things we didn't do.
Grizz
I'm sure most of us have looked back at some of our posts and grimaced a tad.
Remember this bit of wisdom (not mine to claim but, from experience, I endorse it): Our biggest regrests are not so much the things we did in our lives, but the things we didn't do.
Grizz
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Pugwash,
If you're not sure whether this is the career for you, or what it's like to work for NATS, why not set up a couple of visits to NATS sites?
It will be beneficial if you get far enough in the application process, but may also help you decide if you think you'd fit in and be happy. From the ATCOs that I've met and chatted to, they're very upfront if you ask them what things are like (and perhaps won't sugar coat it like some recruitment bods).
Just a thought!
If you're not sure whether this is the career for you, or what it's like to work for NATS, why not set up a couple of visits to NATS sites?
It will be beneficial if you get far enough in the application process, but may also help you decide if you think you'd fit in and be happy. From the ATCOs that I've met and chatted to, they're very upfront if you ask them what things are like (and perhaps won't sugar coat it like some recruitment bods).
Just a thought!
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Well said Grizzled- i'm all for taking any oppotunities when you see them- theres no point lying on your death bed regretting that you didn't do something
"regret the things you did, not the the things you never had the balls to do"
Hey Paperclip 810- good idea and something that i am really keen to do- but i thought i should find out if i could past the stage 1 first- theres no point wasting everyones time if i can't even manage to get over the first hurdle!
Is it difficult to arrange visits?
i'm 98% sure its a career that i would enjoy- but need to convince the last 2% of me!
"regret the things you did, not the the things you never had the balls to do"
Hey Paperclip 810- good idea and something that i am really keen to do- but i thought i should find out if i could past the stage 1 first- theres no point wasting everyones time if i can't even manage to get over the first hurdle!
Is it difficult to arrange visits?
i'm 98% sure its a career that i would enjoy- but need to convince the last 2% of me!