Latest Macc Rumours
 

Latest rumours (or facts) doing the rounds. Anyone shed any light on them?

1. The whole Banding business is being legally looked into by independents to ascertain if it is 'discrimination in the workplace', as our jobs are sufficiently like for like and the weighting allows for geographical differences.

2. Wether the 'mobile grade' we have always been quoted is actually now legally binding after changes to European law.

3. Wether (if the mobile grade argument is proven as unreliable) MACC controllers are entitled to redundancy pay as our 'place of employment' is closing. The enhanced package (which strangely enough is now being renegotiated) for redundancy allowing most guys to clear all debts and happily do something nowadays less stressful (with increasing traffic)without uprooting family.

From the rumour mill I believe these things are seriously being looked into but,as usual, it's best not to raise our hopes. If true-any one of the three would constitute a major spanner to the ill concieved Master Plan.

Anyone able to enlighten?

Serious question so please none of the usual, "you dont know lucky you are" or "whats wrong with prestwick?" or "if youre not happy just leave" replies from people who this doesnt directly affect.

Two points,
1.What is the change in European law re mobile grade and
2.As far as Banding would people who had their careers wrecked by Management in the ATCO 2/3 division in the 90's have any case?
I certainly would like to see people taken to book over the latter and Banding.I reckon my case for back pay over that time is about £150K now.
It would certainly make my mind up about this c:mad: py Top 20 company,Pop pickers:Not Half:ugh:

Doesn't banding affect everyone? :confused:

Sorry
 

Sorry
I meant the comments from the people who arent affected by the move from Macc to NPC (as weve had in the past). The banding issue? of course it affects everyone who was 'classified' as one band or another. The point is...WE know it wasnt exactly fair to all...but was it and IS it legal?
If not...Pandora's Box

People in other 'real world' jobs get extremely different rates of pay for exactly the same jobs. My other half's old company (in the city) had strict policy that revealing your pay was a disciplinary offence as all people on the same grade doing the same job were on far from the same pay! So I think that one's a blind alley. As for the mobile bit, well I know it's an old chestnut but you did sign up to it when you joined...

Throw A Dyce
 

That's my point. I'm asking the same questions you are.
We may feel that we know it's not been right or fair, that's objective. What is not objective however, is wether it's been Legal.
If not...I would like to hope that we all get equal pay for equal work...WHEREVER. An aeroplane over London is the same as an aeroplane over Manchester or Scotland. Weve already proved beyond reasonable doubt that traffic movements do not account for the discrepancy.
I wish you well.

Not Long Now
 

Im sorry but the mistakes of other companies and the mistakes of the past do not allow for the constant movement of progress. Just because other companies policies differ from ours does not excuse the fact that some of our companies policies are evidently unfair and detrimental to some of it's employees.
We cannot live in the past. If what we signed up to years ago is not now legal then our expectations must therefore also progress with the changes which have been implemented since we put our names to paper.
Progress. Hopefully for the better.

And it's unhelpful comparing our function or directive to other companies or organisations. I believe (disagree if you will) that our function is unique.
Therefore I also believe that our circumstances and our renumeration arrangements are difficult to compare to other companies who cannot perform our functions.

As far as mistakes of other companies go, the specific one I'm referring to has an army of legal advisors etc bigger even than NATS management, who all fall over themselves to get into line every time someone in the european parliament even whispers something, so I'm thinking they know what they can and can't do. As for ATC being unique, I think the task itself may be but the fact is we're simply another workforce and so pay will always tend to the demands of that work force. The market may be limited, but it still sets it's own price. See what's happening in the gulf and down under, the world may be big, but people are still happy to move to where the pay is.

Not Long Now
 

"Pay will tend to the demands of the workforce"
Trouble is...it doesn't.
Let's be honest...we don't leave because we can't get what we have elsewhere. In the 'outside world'. I know...I've been there.
BUT...that doesn't,and shouldn't be used as, justification for unfair and unequal conditions and remuneration for a function which is to all intents and purposes...the same.

AND...
 

The pay is going to be in Prestwick.
Does that mean we are happy to move there?
Prestwick may be enticing to some, I personally think it's a haven but it's not to all. Those people with families and working partners are being done a disservice in both pay now before the move and in an intellectual capacity where they are being treat like the idiots which they (and WE) are not. We are intelligent people. We deserve ( and should support each other in the fight for) equal pay, conditions and levels of respect. Our level of respect from our managers should not be dependent on the region where we practice our professional ability. We (YOU) deserve better.

No, and it isn't. It's dependent mostly upon the manager(s), and to a lesser extent the workforce.
I'm not quite sure that we all deserve the same pay. I believe that would be impossible to argue.

I'm not quite sure we deserve the same pay
 

We deserve the same pay if we perform the same function. If you think we do not deserve the same pay for the same function (taking into account the taking over of airspace and relative controller/aircraft figures) then i am at a loss to explain your reasoning and your motives. Suffice to say, from my point of view, that I would support you if you were in my position. If you choose not to support me (us,and that's not just EGCC but all that were and are affected by an unfair banding etc) then I wish you well but am pleased that I can look in the mirror and be proud of what looks back.

i give up
 

I read these replies and some of them make me realise that we will never go forward. We will lose to inside and outside forces . Because we will not protect our colleagues. We will never agree that someone...somewhere else deserves what we have. I just don't understand it. You may.
I don't.

I don`t see how you can justify someone working at a band one/two airport getting paid the same as someone working at a band 5 airport(EGLL) or Area Centre.:ugh:

My motives?

If every unit was paid the same as mine, why would anyone want to come to Heathrow? It is exceedingly difficult to find people who want to come anyway. Who would leave Luton or Manchester or Glasgow for Heathrow, without any pay incentive? That's one of my 'motives'.

That's an interesting question! I take it that you are talking about the operational work, and the constant traffic etc...

Talking from experience, it wasn't the traffic or workload that I disliked. It was the culture, and the attitudes of a number of people there, that made me want to leave.

I'm sure that it is vastly improved now, especially thanks to people like Gonzo (and his waistcoats). I would actually love to go back and have another go, but the nightmares won't let me, especially as a lot of 'those' people remain.

I agree that a financial incentive is needed for people to move units. But that is possible without putting in a £30000 pay differential a year. That differential has divided the company in a very bad way, and actually made the reputation at Heathrow worse than it is.

The banding needs to be looked at, especially as the Red Barron doesn't actually know anything about it (He's been asked twice about it on barstool visits at my unit)

Sonic

I'm talking everything.

For some, the constant traffic and increasing (almost by the week) difficulty might be an attraction (as it is for me - I'm a masochist like that), but that attraction would very quickly disappear if everyone was on the same pay, regardless of unit.

There has to be an incentive for other ATCOs to move to the busier units. If not, nobody would want to leave the quieter units, and then most trainees would end up being posted to Heathrow, where we haven't exactly had much success with ab initios recently.

You mean all that effort I've invested in coming across as an arrogant imbecile hasn't totally succeeded??? :{

Maybe we should abolish pay banding and have a waistcoat allowance at the busier units? I'd be happy with that.......

Agree with Sonic. There should be a differential, but it MUST be reduced. Also in the banding exercise, several units (Cardiff, Farnborough, Aberdeen)were artificially banded lower than they deserved due to the assessors being unable to assimilate certain types of movement which WERE covered in the FAA model.

Chevvron the three units you mentioned to many in NATS will be considered very quiet backwaters, they do not have a clue as to what goes on at them.
We were promised that the banding issue would be revisited but here we are 3 years on and it hasn't been.
No one doubts that hard work should be rewarded but what is often not appreciated is that hard work isn't always simply down to density of traffic.
The banding model was so seriously flawed that you would have hoped by now it had been remodelled and a new assessment taken place, it won't be though because there hasn't been the will to push the issue forward as those who were seriously affected do not have the numbers to push the issue to the very front of the agenda

Has it really been 3 years? As you say, we were promised a review; where is it?

There is a committee being set up as we speak to look at banding.

Is it made up of Band 5 people, or will the lower airports actually get a say this time?

GT3
 

Doesn't it seem very co-incidental that just as the legality of the banding issue seems to be being looked for being discriminatory; a commitee is being set up to 'look at it'?
Talk about closing the stable door...

And back to my original point, it's not about whether some think others deserve the same as them or not, it's about whether it's LEGAL or not according to EU Law.

But...while it's popped up; surely Mr Baron must realise, or SHOULD realise, how divisive the banding issue has been and still is. If he really is interested in moving the company forward then he must know it has to be addressed. As in law...ignorance is no defence.

As far as I am aware it is legal for companies to pay different rates in different parts of the UK for people engaged in the same work. This just reflects the cost of living in those areas.
And as for the mobile clause I beleive there already has been a legal challenge to this and it was confirmed as legal.

Sonic it is not made up of just band 5 people. :rolleyes:

MNT...as far as I am aware the banding is not to represent different cost of living. I think we all agree that some people need slightly more to live in more expensive areas. This doesn't mean that I should get paid less for working my hiney off at EGCC when its just as busy as the next unit. The Banding was to represent different traffic shifting. Which as mentioned has been proved frequently to be flawed.

Surely if Postman pat was paid less money to post his letters in Manchester than cousin Patricia in London there would be uproar in posty land? Yes Patricia may have to pay slightly more for a loaf but they both shift the same amount of letters?

Just had my council tax demand; just over 1600 quid. But I'm a Band 1 controller so how come I'm not paid more to reflect the cost of living in this area?

Band 2 and Council tax £1900 and that ain't connected to the sewerage.House prices here are now 100% over asking price:eek: That's right DOUBLE.:eek: :\
Oh we have a Banding committee.Traffic was 5th busiest in UK the other month so stand by for Band 0 :ugh: .I've seen it all before.We'll get treated again like my septic tank.S:mad: t

Blimey, wish I could afford a house with £1900 council tax!!

That does not mean much as this could be for a one bed flat in London or a Mansion in the sticks!

mobility..
 

There seems to be a number of people who were happy to be on a mobile grade before they were actually mobilised... Sign the contract then moan when it doesn't suit..

begbie
 

I signed my contract over 38 years ago. During that time I have moved extensively within CAA/NATS throughout the UK. I have worked, controlling, instructing and examining in major airports and later in ACC's. Never once have I moaned about moving.
My original thread was hoping for no unhelpful comments about colleagues or generalisations about colleagues or places from people who this move does not concern.
My thread was not about wether I want to move or not, it doesn't affect me at my age; It was about wether the,
Banding
Mobile Grade,
was in fact legal.
That's all. Plain and simple.
It was not an opportunity for people to have a pop at each other.
Unfortunate that certain folk just can't resist that temptation.

Mahaba, it is laughable that you are questioning the legality of the banding system! What f*****g planet are you from!? Some sort of parallel idealistic atc heaven maybe!?

Begbie,
I think you must already be in ATC heaven.Sounds like you did very well out of Banding.:D Good for you.:D
Some people got the S:mad: tty end of the stick.Their traffic is showing double digit growth PA,have to use mutiple ratings,and just got plain screwed by Prospect.I'm sure that if you have terms and conditions imposed on you,because the majority of people that voted in favour, were getting a far better deal,then to me it's a bit suspect.Given Nats/Prospect treatment of some smaller units,and the people there I wouldn't be surprised.
We all know that there is a lot of Skygods in Band 5 land,but have consideration for others on lower Bands.:suspect:

Begbie
 

Especially as we have taken some of the sectors off our southern brethren that initially made them 'eligible' to be band 5 and actually move more a/c per controller (proven)with a far more rigid scratcoh system ( I'm not sure wether they even have one of those). To make matters worse, when our southern brethren visit us they are always surprised at how many working hours per day we actually work on the radar itself, manning the very same sectors they did...with the same traffic...and a third of the manpower.
And...though I may wish I wasn't, due to the unfortunate expletives, := I'm actually from the same planet as you. No need to ask which unit your banding is grouped into though...

Begbie,
Or not getting paid for variety in traffic,the most diverse in th UK,yet the Band 4 center gets it.Or having 4 runways that can be used at the same time,but nothing for it either.
I reckon that I have to do radar,for NOTHING.Band1 tower only unit,which is Band 2 for people there prior to the agreement get the same,yet we are busier,have extra ratings etc.So I do radar for zilch.
All the lower units are looking for is fairness.Not a system that is purely engineered for centers and London units.The Banding issue needs fixed now.
Mobility,
Well the skygods put a big spanner in that cog,by insisting that people who are experience,OJTI etc,need to be assessed for stardom.Yet kids still come out of the college and go to Band 4/5 units with no experience,or assessment.If that isn't patronising staff I don't know what is.
No I think the person on another F:mad: ing planet is you.

I hear the first meeting of the review committee is 19 April?:uhoh:

Banding
 

Ah banding-I remember some years ago when a number of atcos from Jockwick Centre came down south to pick up the easy money on offer at West Drayton.As I recall(Alzheimers permitting)a nice round number validated--0 being the perfect round number.:ooh:

Although I was not one of them maybe it said more about the training "culture " doon sooth rather than the traffic :hmm:


Rgds

AyrTC

I can think of at least 3 (albeit from a pretty small number that I can recall having done so) to sucessfully make the move from Prestwick to either of the "LATCC" units. All of them, including those who failed to validate, did so for personal reasons not financial :yuk:
help me with the relevance of this word .. is it a term of endearment, ignorance or just a simple racial slur:=