Ridiculous and Dangerous RT
 

Hi All!

I wanted to get some opinions from you all about what seems to be a new epidemic on the radio. I speaking of the pilots who say ridiculous things like:

"Eh, London, from XYZ123, we're running a fair bit behind schedule this evening and are trying to make up as much time as possible. We would really appreciate if you could give us any direct routings."

AAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! :ugh: Is it just me or this just the most condescending and patronising thing possible. Do they really think that by saying they are late will make ATC give a direct routing where they otherwise wouldn't??? And what about using up A LOT of valuable air time.

The other day I heard the worst one so far:

"Eh, we have some passengers on board who are hoping to connect to the BA123 from Manchester later this evening, but we don't expect to be there till XX:XXpm, so it'll be too tight for them. Is there any chance you could give us a more direct routing, so we can try to help them out?"

Apart from anything else, they were on London freq at the time. Considering how far they had left to fly, direct bloody Manchester could only have saved them a max of 2 minutes!!! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

:{

Can anyone please explain the way these peoples brains work? Surely ATC will give you what direct routings they can. If you don't think they are, a simple "request direct XYZ" will do??

Tomorrow, I'm going to say:

"Eh, London, we've been early all day now and it looks like we'll be at least 15 minutes ahead of schedule this evening. Is there any chance we could hold at Goodwood for let's say, 2 laps, before we carry on???"

Thanks. I needed to get that off my chest. :O

Agree with you on this one. Lost count how many times been asked. Minor issues like a great big danger area in way or military activity.
Try to give direct whenever possible(subject to traffic and airspace restrictions). :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Out of interest, how do you respond to such requests - by ignoring them? Or do you have a go at them? :E

May seem odd Capt Paddy, but recently with some pretty massive tailwinds over the pond we have done exactly what you said!

"Any chance we can slow down with 200 miles to go so we don't get there too early!!!"

A bit like "I'm ATC, any chance of an upgrade?"

Heh.


Now that is ridiculous :rolleyes:

Well you scratch my back... LOL

I hate this. It's common for EGPH departures now. Checking in on an already busy frequency "Eh Scottish good morning ehh poshjet123 ehh we appreciate your busy but ehh were running late and it really would help us an awful lot if ehh you could see your way clear to ehh letting us cut the corner a bit thank you kindly"
It's a waste of r/t time,pure and simple. I ignore it,no point wasting more time berating someone. I'm always as expeditious as the traffic and airspace allows me to be. As if the fact that a flight is late will influence my decision!

"Eh, London, we've been early all day now and it looks like we'll be at least 15 minutes ahead of schedule this evening. Is there any chance we could hold at Goodwood for let's say, 2 laps, before we carry on???"

Nothing unusual there. A well known British airline used to do this at Heathrow quite often until we put a stop to it. Something to do with the stands not being ready..

A "Roger" normally does for me.

Many years ago I had a Bae 146 inbound from EGPH,in class G direct to a 6 mile final 34 at EGPD.A straighter line cannot be drawn.Speed about Warp 9.This Air P ''UK '' ey said ''I see we are taking the scenic route tonight''.
I was tempted to say unless you start slowing down then you'll end up in Overton Scrap yard as well. Running off the end is a common problem with 146's and Aberdeen.
I just said Roger,and vectored him out for 15 miles instead.:ok:

Expedition
 

ATC has always tried to expedite traffic as much as possible and controllers take pride in being able to do so. When busy ATC does not need these requests which use up valuable RT time. When not busy the controller will usually offer something more expeditious. Of course the other tactic is to ask for something to "avoid weather." Naturally, what is asked for will usually also be a more expeditious route!

Phew!

Thank goodness it's not just me! I've mentioned this to a few of my colleagues but they've never seemed to be bothered by it. It drives me crazy!

My vote is for the next time you guys get a stupid request like this on a quiet evening, you should politely point out the fact that they are wasting valuable air time and that they have already been given the most direct routing available considering other traffic.

It reminds me of those who incessantly ask whether they can expect holding approaching DAYNE or MIRSI at MAN despite the fact that ATC are already at capacity. THE STAR SAYS DAYNE/MIRSI IS THE CLEARANCE LIMIT! I only assume that it takes less physical exertion to push the PTT than it takes to push the three buttons required to enter the hold on the FMS! Before you fuelaphobics have a go, every single crew I've heard ask this question and then subsequently be given multiple laps of holding have never complained or mentioned fuel at all. They obviously had enough to do it in the first place.

This really is becoming a great counselling session for me! Thanks!

:ok:

captainpaddy
doesn't do any real harm if we aren't busy......R/T loading will be a good guide. We can make extra effort [increased co-ordination] subject workload.
If the same airline, or even same pilot, makes a habit of it.........different outcome! Do you recognise regular controller voices like we recognise pilots?
We did have "Request Air" [not real ident of course] some years ago.....Our initial response to check-in was jokingly..."go ahead with request".....it can be particularly non-productive.
On the "is there much holding?" question......no harm in asking if R/T load fairly low......in fact I view that as a reasonble request.....and if it does not disrupt my primary function I will respond as accurately as my available data permits.[Especially for oceanic inbounds].

CaptainP,

I agree with you totally. I am a FO and when it is not my leg i hate being asked to make dumb RT requests to ATC when the Captain says so. This is not a blanket dig at captains by the way, so do not take it as such. But, back to the point, when a captain says "just ask him this, that and the other", you feel a right frozen Christmas turkey, but what can you do!?

Half the time when either they, or me when forced, asks about holding at MIRSI (EGCC) then they say "ill just find out". Sometimes the information isnt obvious to them, because perhaps its in the next sector. Why not just wait, have it in the FMS anyway, and have a look at TCAS which sometimes paints a nice picture if your that bothered. Besides, its fairly obvious when there is going to be holding at EGCC - most mornings! I have never held for more than a few laps anyway, so its harldly a disaster.

Rant over!

055166K,

Fair enough I suppose! If you feel that way, then I guess it may not be the big issue I think it is. However, regarding holding, I am referring to the busy days. Even if it was quiet, I have always been given instructions for leaving the holding fix before reaching it, or, completed at least one lap before moving on. This would suggest that we weren't holding just because ATC forgot about us, which is the only reason I can think of for asking in the first place.

Also, you had said

"We can make extra effort [increased co-ordination] subject workload."

Surely you don't mean that you make an extra effort just because they said they were running late? Wouldn't a simple request like "request direct XYZ" get the same extra effort? My whole point is that it seems that these guys think that they'll get direct somewhere out of sympathy! I feel that is extremely insulting to ATC!

Baron Buzz,

Me too!

:{

Ridiculous and dangerous R/T
 

Dear Captainpaddy ,

I have read with interest your comments, about the ridiculous requests on ATC.

This is we can call the “new breed pilots” flying around, and providing “very safe” operations to the general public.

If we analyze such ludicrous requests by CRM point of view, these people display that they seriously lack of Situational Awareness.

If we try to see it from the professional aspect or point of view, many of us is already used to these “company saviors” who do anything , to improve production , without any regard to safety, without any concern who are the other traffics around, ANYTHING WATSOEVER !

Provided they look good on the Boss eyes, and climb the ladder quickly. :hmm:

They will fly, even without fuel or wings, if it was possible.:eek:

It is not only ridiculous, but shameful a so called grown person, to trigger the button, and try to explain his passengers are getting a connecting flight, and for that the ATC, should collaborate to expedite them to gain 2 MINUTES!

Like the ATC does not collaborate, or even implying that the operational problem of certain airline, becomes an ATC problem, this is ridiculous.

Or even making sarcastic comments, like as “scenic route” meanwhile they still keeping warp 9 on a traffic pattern were the legal speed, suppose to be already the one, in the STAR chart, and class airspace.
Therefore, if they are over speeding, they should be served with a nice ticket to make them to cool down.

I wish to conclude with the following statements:

It is a long time I am in aviation, and had to live with idiots, triggering the button without even asking or explaining, before to make these kinds of requests to ATC.
Likely, my airline had the “right medicine “for them on that time.:*

Whenever approaching or departing out of UK, always I was given the best of the ATC could give me, and this is my view until today.
Whenever I needed to change my heading for WX reason, they always tried to accommodate my request.

Several times, I had to deal with late departure or late arrival, due to several reasons, with many passengers on connecting flights at destination.
However, the mater it was dealt with the company’s concern department, even giving much up to date information by radio or ACARS, so they could themselves make the required arrangements to accommodate the transiting passengers.

This is NOT, by all means the responsibility of the ATC, but of a professional pilot, with a professional attitude.
Safe flying to all

Mercurius

Ooooo, I like that one. :ok:

I had a great one the other day from a certain major customer's last flight to a German destination:

"Delivery, this is ABC123, we're running late tonight and we require to be airborne by time 10, otherwise we will get caught by the jet ban. We'll be ready just before the hour"....

This was from LHR T1 for a 09R departure.

"ABC123, roger. I'm afraid that sounds impossible. I don't think there's any way you'll get airborne within ten minutes from that stand."

"No, you don't understand (always a good one saying that to ATC!), we require [my emphasis] priority to get away before time 10"

"Roger"

Of course, no priority was shown. :ugh:

I was expecting him to request 27R for departure!

It's not the first time this has happened for this flight, either.

Ryanair could have made it ;) :E

Yep, they taxi so quickly they could probably get airbourne from the taxiway ;)

250kts below 10,000 or on the ground :E

(Sorry Capt. Paddy, back to the thread................)

A quick request for the German fraturnity out there who operate into a certain airfield in southern Spain. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP REQUESTING SLOT ADJUSTMENTS ON THE :mad: ING TWR FREQUENCY!!!!!! Pls use the ground frequency and keep the air clear so that other aircraft can call finals and not have to go-around! I even had one chap try and read the entire of ICAO DOC 4444 to the controller whilst i was on an overhead rejoin. Got around to finals with him still blabing on then had to abandon all hope of recieving landing clearence, even after trying to step on him to give the controller a hint.

Anywho, summer season over, rant over.


Next summer just remember to put your towels out on the runway the night before ok?

Or being asked what the reason for the delay is on ground first thing!!! Instead of saying "traffic" I might start telling 'em it's because I'm breaking in new shoes!

louby

Why not comply with the rules

The rules are there for a reason if the airlines and operations worked closer together a lot of the R.T to Air Traffic would not be there required and things would move on a lot better.

Rules can be adjusted to suit at times but not to bend or flont them, it can work both ways pilots can try and upset Air Traffic but Air Traffic in the end can have the upper hand by making life a little more difficult and say on arrival give a bit of a punishment routing or somethink like that.

As he would say up stairs stick to the rules and we all will have a good day.

That is the good thing about RYR and EZY - they are very strict about check in times.

Other carriers should take a leaf out of their books. I have no sympathy for these people that yo usee on TV who leave home intending to get to the airport with 20 whole minutes to spare, then get stuck in traffic.

2 minutes late for check in is as bad as 20 minus late... if you are late you are late.

Then carriers might find that they actually are ready in time to make slots realistically!!

Or the idiotic charter airlines who file 10mins earlier than expected to swindle the slot times!! Ive had many arguements with flightcrew who think they are filed at a time... "No sir, you are filed 10 minutes ago..."
Grrrr.... :ugh:

captainpaddy
I must be a weirdo in "controllerworld" because I do make the extra effort on occassion. I've a pretty good idea if you're late or not...if it's a regular flight.
However....if you bug me when I'm busy.....I can say "negative" in a manner that will melt your headset. If I find out a particular request is based on a lie.....I do the same sectors all the time.....work it out!
As for priorities, how do you think Concorde operated all those years. I worked that machine for nearly the whole of its working life and the closest I got to it was when it flew over Reading. Never quite sure how they allocated Fam Flights on that.......no surprise that Heathrow staff did rather well!
From the replies it would seem that different airspace affects the situation....the ground and terminal airspace scenarios are densely packed with little room to accommodate expedition requests. My sky is much bigger and perhaps that is why my colleagues and I have more flexibility. [workload permitting]

So was the flight cancelled( and 100+ men women and kids stranded in the wrong country overnight??)Was that the moral here?

055166k,

I'm feeling a bit sheepish about my tirade now! :O

But, just to be sure we don't misunderstand eachother......

I don't mean to suggest that a controller should not give priority or make a little extra effort now and then for a particular flight. Far from it! It is that sort of flexibility that keeps the wheels turning! What I object to is pilots attempting to obtain shortcuts and/or other assistance by referring to irrelevant detail that is ultimately designed to make you (the ATC guy) give them what they want because you feel sorry for them.

If I simply ask "request direct XYZ" and it's available, I would expect you to approve it. If it's not available for whatever reason (traffic, workload, etc), I expect you to say "negative" or whatever. But I would not expect you to give me a direct routing where you otherwise wouldn't simpy because I told you I was running late or my passengers think they left their respective irons on at home.

If two aircraft were flying a similar route, but only one could feasably be given a direct routing, I would expect you to give it to whichever one asks first, not simply to the guy who is furthest behind schedule. Therefore, the lateness of my flight is entirely irrelevant, and me telling you I'm late, is a display of my lack of understanding of the system and my feeling that you are a lower intelligence being who can be pushed into doing something you wouldn't otherwise do by my marvellous and creative vocabulary.

Does anyone think differentlt to that? Do you?

Cheers!

CP

Obviously people being stranded in the wrong country overnight is undesirable, but really the scheduling of these flights (particularly some German destinations served by a major UK airline) must be called into question. If certain flights are frequently requesting priority, something must be wrong somewhere.

Asking for priority around 2000 hours outbound is simply not fair on the other airlines. Why should they be penalised for one flight that cannot suffer some schedule shift that happens frequently particularly at busy airports? It's time that things changed rather than putting pressure on ATC and their own crews.

I've never known these flights get cancelled. AFAIK they always depart, and perhaps divert to alternate if they are too late to land.

Why, when I read this thread does the old phrase "obedience of fools, guidance of wise men" come to mind?

If anybody asks "Do you have any direct for us?", just give him ANY direct to somewhere he doesn´t want to go. Realizing that this is a detour for him just say "It´s the only direct I had." :D
Should work...

Want direct routings without having to even ask? Try cargo! You'll routinely get routed direct from, say, DPE to HON or EME, obviously with vectors to the ILS and no holds... but then again it all happens in the (very) early hours of the morning :zzz:

Cheers :cool:

Gee...

You mean like, we would like direct anywhere... Sorry sir I don't see anywhere in your route of flight. Or the very nice one... You have any directs for us tonight center??? Of course sir, you can go straight to hell <G>... (joking folks)...

regards

Scott

One of my colleagues got called a W@nk*r on the R/T the other day by a Doncaster inbound because he wouldn't give it a direct to the FNY because it would take it outside controlled airspace and we could all see that there was a lot of military out there. I think it was a Thompson.

The pilot didn't know he transmitted it but was bang out of order anyway.

If I get asked for direct I try and get it if it's not too busy but a THANKYOU would be appreciated when we can achieve it.

Yes I'm talking about you Ryanair!

If I can see it is too busy then the phrase "due to noise restrictions" does the trick. Due to the fact there may be a big bang if you go direct.

It's really quite heartening to be refered to as "military crap", especially in relation to FNY!

I guess we'll just have to keep on getting in the way; it's not as if we've been kicking around that neck of the woods for more than a couple of years. ;)

sorry I'll edit out crap, it was a term of endearment really.

Military do a fine job!