Sorry Hootin' , Airport services don't make 'the profit', as you call it, alone. They make part of the overall profit for the whole company from which everyone benefits. For 2005, NERL made an operating profit of £114M, Airport Services made an operating profit of £10M.

This came after offsetting an operating cost of £330M for NERL and £82M for Airports. So buck for buck, NERL run a tighter ship when it comes to profit against costs spent. Or a better return if you want to put it that way.

That's for 2005, all available in the NATS published accounts.


Back to the HTD issue. If there is a 6 month withdrawal clause in the agreement, then I say grab the money and run while we can. If there is not, then either let's leave it as it is or let NATS come back with a substantially better offer. :ok:

I've read the accounts thanks

"After pre-tax losses of £80m in 2002 and £29m in 2003 the group reported a modest pre tax profit of £1.8m in 2004. This year, however, the group reported its first significant pre-tax profit of £69m."

We do need this 6 month clause clarified ;)

Or they overcharge massively and CP2 is to redress that while NSL is more commercially realistic and has been for many years:p :p

If you look at the the time period 2002 to 2005 the group is still 38.2million in the red (109million in losses and just 70.8 in porifts)

And some airports in NSL make a high proportion of that profit....

Well, looks like NATS management's "divide and conquer" tactic is working! :rolleyes:

"Well, looks like NATS management's "divide and conquer" tactic is working! "

If you boys would have stuck with us a couple of years ago and voted NO to the banding system then we would not be divided. However as I have already stated the 'lower' grades feel demeaned and let down by our brothers at the top who are now bleating 'lets stick together and not let management divide us'

TOO LATE!!

I'm just waiting for the routine reply of 'Move to a different unit'. Not easy these days and life's not that simple.

As your being cocked about on the roster m8 i'd suggest you demand it.

Even if you are a vandle :}

No new HTD claims are being accepted, and will be frozen at November 2005 levels, so if you move or moved after November 2005, your HTD remains frozen at that previous level.

Therefore a claim for 30 miles each way in November 2005 remains in place even if you move to a unit where HTD is paid and you only live 1 mile away.

Anybody know when we're supposed to be voting on this?

...hmm, now that;s interesting!:ok:

TIO? Vandel? Me? It just gave way!;)

I have received my ballot paper in the post today, just thought I would mention it in case some have the same problem with getting their ballot papers as they did with the pay ballot.

Thanks flower

I, no doubt, will have to chase up my union rep.

What date does the voting close??

Thanks for the info

Vote closes March 22nd

Thanks for that...

So April pay then if it comes in... Can't see any way around keeping HTD at the moment, I think they have us over a barrel

Not really over a barrel, if the membership votes no then we keep HTD.
Notice the letter says
"In order for the proposed changes to have contractual force it will require that the majority of the respective Prospect branches and a majority of PCS members vote in favour."
So if we take that exactly as it's written, that requires an overall majority of the membership to accept rather than a majority of those who return a vote?

Given the turn out for the pay deal, I'd say HTD will be around for a while yet, unless of course Prospect decide that's not actually what they meant...

I have not seen the letter, but was of the understanding that the Management could take HTD from us anyways if they give us notice.

I would rather kep HTD until I retire, but I am led to believe it's not an option, one way or theother.

Some clarification needed methinks, before we vote.

Any union bods or contract specialists out there who could comment? Can management take it off us?

Is this offer a nice way of them doing it? They know if they were just to take it (as may or may not be their right), there would be a lot of bad feelings.

Whilst loathe to give up any of my salary there does have to be a realism in that we need to as a company make massive savings.
Although concerned we may go into free fall over our perks the HTD one is I am prepared to give up as in reality who does now get paid HTD in other professions.
The savings made apparently equally 1.5 million

Flower,

I understand where you are coming from and partly agree it would be a small price to pay as a shareholder of sorts ourselves.

What galls me tho is that this is being talked about now, just after the pay deal. It seems a sneaky way of doing things.

If HTD can be withdrawn anyway then why are we being offered money to agree? Can UHP be withdrawn too?

Not Long Now

I think the UHP is safe - it will change so that non 24hr units do not get 100% but in the main, it will not be taken away.

I think HTD is less of an 'institution'. I also believe that if the management were able to take it away anyways, and did so arbitrarily, they know they would be very unpopular.

This 'offer' may be a way for them to make the savings in the long run without putting peoples noses out of joint.

Maybe someone with more of an idea than my idle guessing will step in with a definitive answer

Can any of the enlightened answer me this...... (please)

I moved unit last August, where I received maximum HTD.
At my new unit, I did not claim HTD for which I was entitled roughly £30 pm, due to administration failures!

So, in short, am I gonna be getting goosed for circa. £720 before tax?

Cheers!

Bob!

Go see your manager as soon as, and get him to contact HR or whichever bunch of clowns it is running it today, and ask politely to have it back-dated to your move date. Can't hurt to ask. My last move got lost in the internal mail somewhere, and finally got it sorted about 10 months after the fact. Money was backddated and turned uo the next month.

Think I'll do just that NLN!

Cheers!

Or to look at it another way, Paul Barron's bonuses for the next three years.

My Union Bod has informed me that they CANNOT take HTD off us without consultation.

Therefore, unless you retire within the next two years, it is in your interest to vote 'no' to scrapping HTD.

My Union bod has informed me that in theory they can do what they like to us i.e. enforce a pay cut etc. but this wouldn't happen as we would not put up with it. Are we all going to go out on strike because HTD is withdrawn? I think not.

I should vote no because as UKATCO 535 states I have a good few years left in the job, however don't be surprised if we say no and then this is used as a bargaining tool in the next pay negotiations were we may be offered a percentage at the loss of HTD. It's gonna happen and HTD WILL be phased out if not now then very soon.

I'm going to vote 'yes', and take the money. Why? For four reasons...

1) Being an ATSA, I'm not even sure how long I will be remaining in employment with NATS.
2) I am advised by our PCS Reps that Mgmt can remove HTD payments whenever they like, as long as they give HTD recipients 6 months' notice of their intentions.
3) The two Unions are giving out conflicting information (as usual :hmm: ), and will be unable to come up with a workable plan to save HTD which will be to everybody's liking.
4) If the issue of HTD becomes a bargaining chip in any future negotiations, then it will invariably follow that I and all the other ATSAs will not do as well out of the deal as our ATCO colleagues - because when it comes to money, we never do.

Give me the money, give me the money...:ok: :ok:

The 6 month HTD withdrawal by management I'm sure is a red herring and will not happen. It must be negotiated with the union, which is what this offer is and where we are now. Management are desparate for us to accept it, hence the reason why it is being offered to people who do not claim it, (out of interest, I'd like to know why the union has recommended such an offer to its members?). Is it because they(union) think by showing flexibility over this issue, it will put us in a good position when the pension issue comes to a head?
Back to HTD. Accept it and you will need to shout 'give me the money' as loud as you can becuase in a couple of years time you'll be out of pocket! (Unless you're days to go!!)

All of us who don't get it are happy to vote yes and get £250 for nothing.

So if managemtn did just stop home to duty then all they would have to negotiate would be its replacement. As you said would people strke just for HTD, I dont think so. The union would then be in a situatio nwhere it would have to put an offer from managment to its memebers that would be along the lines of "Oh well you voted no so management are offering this, we think it should be accepted"

Hootin,

I am kinda in two minds about the yes or no vote. I would rather vote yes to let the management know we are reasonable people so that when it comes to the pension vote, they will realise there will be no negotiation.

However I would also like to vote no because i have many years to go, and I also think that discussing HTD after the pay deal is done and dusted is a tad sneaky by the manangement to say the least.

Typical ATCO, I can't make a decision just yet!!

TATC

People will not strike for HTD, but thats no reason just to give it up!

It is also very divisive of the management to offer people who do not get HTD for whatever reason (unit does not give it or they live too close) a bung of £250 if the vote is in favour of scrapping. They of course are being encouraged to vote 'yes' because they will gain money for nothing!!

This measure is only aimed at the workers; remember that the recent pay package included car/allowance for managers and associated grades as well as the family BUPA bung. Rather complicated to pay both HTD and trying to integrate that with the car package and also trying to determine who/where/when can still claim HTD.
[If I was a manager I would have dumped this years ago in favour of a staff subsidised car loan/purchase scheme].

ukatco_535

We usually disagree on things but I fully agree with your last point. I'm also in two minds and should really vote NO.
However I believe HTD will be phased out at some point but unlike TATC don't think management will need to or have to come up with a replacement. It will be included in the next pay negotiations and we will be sold down the river as usual with the loss of HTD with the alledged gain of a % or £1 on LV's etc which we maybe would have got anyway.
My main gripe is if we are so intent on saving money then why the hell are we paying people £250 who aren't receiving HTD in the first place and why are these people included in the vote.

your probably right about management selling us away in the next pay deal, and I will readily be voting yes to make sure i at least get somthing when.

The reason those who dont get HTD are in the vote is to make sure that they at least get some YES that could make all the difference in the final result

Will the ATCO with a backbone please step forward...the rest of you jellies can just wobble around where you are.

Why would anyone except those not in receipt of HTD or retiring within 2 years even contemplate voting for a cut in their terms & conditions? OK so the company has to save money, but that doesn't mean it has to come out of your pocket.

Maybe they can withdraw it at 6 months notice, but if they want to declare war on their greatest asset (their words), then bring it on.

Here here. It's a no vote for me. I've got 25 years to go - 2 years worth isn't anywhere like enough. If the vote results in a 'NO' , management will be forced to renegotiate - they will not just remove it.

"Here here. It's a no vote for me. I've got 25 years to go - 2 years worth isn't anywhere like enough. If the vote results in a 'NO' , management will be forced to renegotiate - they will not just remove it. "

They may not just remove it now but I can see it going in the future with NEGOTIATION over our next pay deal. I have voted No on principal but expect that the overall result will be a YES due to the fact people not recieving HTD are allowed a vote.


"Why would anyone except those not in receipt of HTD or retiring within 2 years even contemplate voting for a cut in their terms & conditions? OK so the company has to save money, but that doesn't mean it has to come out of your pocket."

Because the more cynical of us can see HTD being lost in the long run anyway. The Union are pushing for a yes so when it is negotiated next pay round I can't see them putting up a huge fight and we'll lose then with no money in our pockets. Sounds to me like you haven't been dumped on by the company yet or are very naive. It will happen and then you can become as p****d off as the rest of us.

"Maybe they can withdraw it at 6 months notice, but if they want to declare war on their greatest asset (their words), then bring it on."

All of us stick together? That'll be the day!
:E

We need to find a new union
 

What a bunch of awesome negotiators we have working for us in that union of ours. We pay their wages - and they repay us by recommending that we vote "YES" for a poor pay deal and an even poorer HTD "buy-out". Prospect should have made it quite clear to NATS management that anyone not currently claiming HTD should not be included in the ballot. To allow those people into the ballot, AND to offer them £250 for nothing, is appalling. The union have screwed the rest of us twice. NATS management have shown a recent track record for being divisive in every negotiation. Prospect should be zero-tolerant with the management on this - yet twice in one month they have allowed biased ballots to come before us. And then they have the NERVE to recommend that we all hold hands and vote yes each time! The union should, by definition, be trying to hold us together. Prospect are failing miserably.

Pure conjecture I'm afraid, given that they've cleverly offered £250 to people who never get HTD. I would say that represents a majority of staff at Swanwick. Then there are the people who work at units where the HTD scheme does not operate. £250 for them as well. If all of these people vote "YES", as they're entitled to do (it's free money after all!) and collective ballot apathy runs as high as it did for the pay ballot, then HTD is a goner by 22nd March. I will be voting "NO" for all the difference it will make. At least the crumby union will be paying the postage.

The ATCOs with backbones should have stepped forward last month and thrown out the pay deal. If the result for that ballot was 64:36, then this is going to be a complete landslide.

Quite right too. We are the ones responsible for making sure that this company even has a turnover to speak of, yet time and again we are being coerced into making sacrifices. Traffic is forecast to increase by 40% this year on some LACC sectors - there's your £1.5M, Mr Barron. I wonder what sort of a pay deal the legions of middle-management desk-jockeys at CTC got this year? If cuts really need to be made, then look no further than Whiteley.......

LTP

Destination 23: "We will have grown into a streamlined, efficient company, which is not top-heavy with vast numbers of overpaid and underworked office staff"

Is there a seperate deal for ATCEs and ATCO/ATSAs, or is it an across the board deal? From engineering point of view, I see a resounding yes result, considering no one at CTC gets it - personally, £250 (minus tax) in the pocket is better than nowt. Those engineers at Spectrum House will also lose it when they move down in May, so they are very likely to say yes. And I suspect many non-ops engineers that will move to CTC in 2007 will say yes as they would lose it too.
ps. LTP, we are not all middle management desk jockeys at CTC, some of us look after the systems that YOU need to be (quote) "responsible for making sure that this company even has a turnover to speak of".