LHR Old Runways
 

I've just tried the search facility and found some information on runway 05/23, but can anyone please advise me of the runway numbers and dates taken out of use (where applicable) for ALL previous active runways since the airport was built.

Any old plans and/or aerial photos would be of great help as well.

Thanks
airsmiles

O5/23 was originally 05R/23L and there was a parallel 05L/23R. The third of the triangles was 15R/33L with a corresponding 33R/15L. There is also mention of a 16/34, but I do not recall that runway. Old charts show what might have been a 23 Centre, but I do not know if that was ever a full runway. In the early days I believe that was the piece of tarmas referred to by ATC as "Waites Alley" because a captain of that name attempted to take off on it in poor visibility. (Facts that would definitely need confirming!)

33L closed around 1968 and 23R around 1970. 05R closed many years later but so far as I know 23 (L) is still available today - at some notice and with no ILS.

Officialy it is only NOTAM'd out of action, although the likelihood of it ever being used again is often doubted on these forums by the people that usualy know what they're talking about :E

Ver precise HEATHROW DIRECTOR

Very precise posting HEATHROW DIRECTOR!

The old photos of the low vis "departure" from "23C" were rather disturbing. It took hours to cut the Captain out of his seat, but he was OK (thankfully).

Would I be right in saying that the hatched area between the outer and inner taxyways was this infamous 23C (it was never an actual runway). I presume the reason it was hatched (and not even used for taxying) was to stop a recurrence.

The approach to 23R was very interesting as the threshold was just beyond the tunnel entrance.

05R became 05, obviously after 05L/23R closed. Then when Terminal 4 was completed, or maybe just before, 05 became unavailable. I will stand corrected by the true aviation buffs.

A radar vector to Rw 23 ILs was always very welcome when the aircraft cross wind limit was exceeded for the westerly Runways.
The removal of this runway and ILs were not requested by the pilots.

airsmiles check ur PMs...

There are many reasons why 23 is NOTAMed out of action (and probably won't ever come back):

-The top seven stories of our new tower is being built just by the royal suite....Due to move on October 28 now....
-There are two remote parking stands just off 23 in the old grass area between the old blocks 74 and 54
-There's a big white pointy thing parked on the shoulder of 23 abeam the touchdown point.
-Permanent concrete barriers have been placed to along the edge of 27L to the north at the 23/27L intersection to restrict that intersection to the width of a taxiway rather than the width of runway 23.

Shame about 23. I don't know how many people on here have seen a "real" 23 wind.. but when it happens you will sure wish you still had that runway. 23 SRO was fun - in the very strong winds you could get departures away in 3m gaps!

I've seen it get to 190/35G45 before. That was fun watching the 340s and 146s!!!!

Yeah... and it was fun watching the odd 707 take 27L in those conditions!!

I remember a very interesting morning duty, many years go, when traffic was landing on 05 and departing on 10R.....of course as an atca at the time, I found it merely interesting, it wasn`t til some years later that I learned to appreciate the hard work required.

You're so right Loki! You had to clear one for take off on 10R before the 05 lander had crossed it.. I did this with a Speedbird VC-10 and the guy said "We'll just wait a minute as we're a bit concerned about the one landing on 05". I said something like "It's the one behind him I'm worrying about".. the VC-10 rolled!

lHR Runways
 

Lots and lots of lights in an out as pax-never landed on 23 but in March 1977 I landed on 05 BA Trident 3 from Faro back to a freezing windy snowbound UK.

Very odd approach I believe I clearly remeber looking down on LHR as we started a long left turn presumeably back out over Staines and then another 180 and back to land,
My other memory of that runwaywas as a teenager in Stanwell watching the ill fated BOAC 707 ablaze and missing an engine make an emergency return billowing smoke and being even more horified a minute or so after it passed from view at a huge black plume of smoke as it exploded on the ground-amazing almost everyone got out..

As for the SE/NW runways I have a feint recollection of seeing what was probablya DC3 approach over approximately the junction of the A30 with the Stanwell Road- that must have been around 1960 but never saw much action on those which is no doubt while they went first.

Now its down to two runways and when the tower goes it will never be quite the same again to me
PB

Pax, the old tower will stay there as our contingency in case the vending machine in the new one breaks down!

Only until October 28 when it moves!

Mike, the top seven storey section of our new tower is being built by the RS, and on the night of October 28 it will be put on a big low-loader and moved across 27L to it's eventual location between T3 and T5.

So whilst we are (more or less) on the subject, can anyone confirm the fact that in (I think) 1990, with high winds causing all sorts of mayhem, I saw the evening Concorde DEPART on RWY 23? Never been able to confirm what I saw, some corroboration(sp?) would certainly be nice! Sorry I can't be more definite with the date!

PHX

The first ever Jumbo N735PA landed on the old 10R on the morning of 12 Jan 1970, my first day in the job. There are some marvellous old black and white films that show an occassional glimpse of the old multi-runway era.

Thanks for all of the interest in my original post.

I've done a bit more digging around the question of old LHR runways and found a 1956 Ordnance Survey map that clearly shows 3 parallel runways on the 15/33 axis. They are placed as follows:-

33R/15L runs from threshold of current 27L north-west to stop just short of the 09L/27R runway.

33C/15C runs from junction of current 23/05 runway with 27L/09R, north-west to a taxiway NORTH of 27R/09L.

33L/15R runs from just SOUTH of current 27L/09R runway (approx cargo area) north-west to just short of 09L threshold area.

If anyone wants a photocopy of LHR on this map send a PM with address or fax number. (I haven't got a scanner unfortunately).

HEATHROW DIRECTOR, there's only one reference to a 23/05 runway and thats the current one. However, there is the outline of what could be a 23R/05L runway (due to its width) but it's very short. This runs North-East from a point just north of the Perry Oaks sewage/water works.

Interestingly, having looked at the taxiway north of the current 27R/09L runway again on the map I see that there appears to be a large apron at the eastern end of it. I guess this would be roughly where the Heathrow Visitor Centre now stands. I have a recollection of a Pan Am B707 parked NORTH of the then 28R/10L in the early to mid 70's, but I've never managed to verify it. May be it was parked on this apron for some reason.

Does anyone have any recollection or documentation to explain this apron or the parked Pan Am B707 ?

airsmiles

The north side apron was the original for Heathrow when it first opened. It remained in use as London Airport ( North) until the prefab buildings, which consituted the long haul terminal were replaced by Terminal 3 in 1961/2. It covered roughly the site from just east of the tunnel , through the current Visitors Centre and on into the taxi park.
The original plan for LHR circa 1948 shows no less than 9 runways, of which 8 would probably have been eventually operational, with 3 in a triangle between the A4 and where the M4 now is. The villages of Sipson and Harmondsworth were both marked for demolition until released from this threat circa 1953 when the government reckoned that the airlines would never need such a large facility. That was the last of the vision and we have been living with the results,- and accountants,- ever since.

As Skylion says, the northern area was the original terminal area. As work in the central area progressed, short-haul flights were gradually transferred there during the fifties, but the long-haul Stratocruisers and Super Constellations remained on the north side for several more years.

In those days the London Transport bus service did not venture through the tunnel into the central area, so spectators had a choice of walking through the pedestrian tunnel (now used as an additional lane for cars) to use the viewing gallery atop the Queen's Building, or using the more primitive ground-level area just north of 28R. The latter involved walking across the active runway when directed by the duty policeman. There was always plenty so see and do, although the pace of life was a lot slower then. There were even a couple of Dragon Rapide biplanes available for fifteen-minute joy-rides around the local area - imagine that in today's environment!!!

Even after all long-haul flights transferred to what became Terminal 3, there were occasional visiting aircraft parked on the north apron (now under the public perimeter road).

The perceived '15C/33C' runway was the 1945 'RAF Heathrow' NW/SE runway, very possibly then aligned 16/34 magnetic. It had to be built to keep up the pretence that the airfield was 'needed' by the RAF. Construction of this runway was abandoned in 1946 and was subsequently all but obliterated by the Central Area development, control tower included. I believe that it was the northern part of this runway known as 'Waites Alley' where the Viscount attempted takeoff in low vis, the crew believing it to be 15R, and collided with construction equipment. It was subsequently marked 'TAXIWAY'.

And Numpo, I suppose you can remember the little oval 'train set' with the coloured locos with chromium plated bells, next to the north-side control tower? And Monique Agazarian's five bob joyrides.......and the green and cream tubular steel deck-chairs? And the -4's and -6's and CV440's and Connies and Strats........

Aah, nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

('IMC', where are you when we need you??) ( Hey, HD, is 'IMC' on this forum?)

TDM

talkdownman, I don't think he's here.

That's our loss, then!

I don't know the IMC you refer to because I don't think Gonzo would know the the one I'm thinking of!

I'll write some more on this thread soon - busy wrapping up this month's Finchampstead Magazine, which bears no resemblance to Air Pic!

There's a sign in the middle of RWY 23 at the moment, and they would have to clear the Whiskeys and those two new stands they've built before the runway could ever be used again.

I don't think they ever intend to re-open it.

I don't think they'll ever fix the HRW ndb either. Shame because it's always a good check of the localiser.

I can't wait to see the new tower move over. What if it falls over in the middle of 27L:ugh:

HD,

IMC and Gonzo did briefly overlap. Gonz must've slipped thro IMC's net ;)

That would be a tragedy. Vending machines don't like to be tilted over - they tend to lock up for security reasons.

And that would upset Gonzo :)

Very interesting thread by the way. Has anyone found some old aerial photos of what LHR used to look like - there must be something on-line somewhere?

amofw

Capt. H Peacock,

If you want the HRW NDB to come back, get your company to make some noises to Heathrow ATC Ops. I believe that it's currently off the air to see if anyone complains. If nobody complains, then it will go. 2nd December is the deadline I think.

HD, if we mean the IMC who might be referred to as 'Legend' and associated with Tiger Moths, then I did know him. He even trained me once. :} (See, I'm not as young as I look!)

I still remember the first few words he said to me on my first day! Same as all other trainees I gather!

<<HD, if we mean the IMC who might be referred to as 'Legend' and associated with Tiger Moths, then I did know him. He even trained me once. (See, I'm not as young as I look!)
>>

Oh that IMC - He was on my ATC Primary Course in 1967. I'd forgotten him but I think he was nicknamed Rottweiler?? The one I meant
was a Scottish guy who resigned and went broadcasting.


<<I don\'t think they\'ll ever fix the HRW ndb either. Shame because it\'s always a good check of the localiser.>>

Nope.. don\'t understand your banter Captain P! How can a crummy old MF beacon provide a check of a localiser?
The HRW never had a procedure associated with it and I often wondered what on earth it was there for!

As it's popped up a few times now, can anyone refer me to a report on the waites alley viscount accident ? Was it written-off ?

airsmiles

The Rural Life Centre, Tilford, Surrey holds records of an agricultural machinery supplier (J.Gibbs, of Bedfont, Middx) whose firm was situated just outside the airfield perimeter.
Included in the collection is a high definition aerial photo of Heathrow taken, in my estimation, in the late '50s/early '60s.
The photo was on public view until about a year ago, when the display was re-organised.
I'm sure that the photo is still available for viewing...phone Mr. Chris Shepheard, (Curator) on 01252-795571 if you are keen to see it.
Chris is an aviation buff, and will probably remember when we organised a school trip to Heathrow in a Bedford SB, with a guided tour "airside" as part of the package!

I have a couple of ariel photographs of Heathrow. 1946 and 1950. Shows all the runways and you can see the order they were constructed.

All I need is for somebody to tell me how to attach them to this forum. Its got to be easy.

It is, relatively. Drop me a PM and I'll guide you through it.

There's a whole mass of stuff, including old pics and charts, waiting to be published in a book covering 50 years of Heathrow ATC. Unfortunately it's already several years late so I can't give any estimates of when it might appear. This is from the late 50s I think..


http://members.aol.com/berksbirds/EGLL.jpg

S.A.T.C.C. ! That brings back lots of memories!

I can recommend the following book:

HEATHROW - 2000 Years of History
Author: Philip Sherwood

ISBN-0-7509-2132-3

Sutton Publishing Ltd
Phoenix Mill
Stroud
Gloucestershire

£ 9.99

I'm not in it. But maybe with HD in the one I think he's talking about.

Thanks for that Talkdownman - goin' to check that out. I don't think I'm in any book, but a lot of my typing will be!

Excellent map HEATHROW DIRECTOR. All we need now is to arrange a group of us to visit LHR to undertake a tour of remaining relics of the past on the airfield.

I would willingly volunteer to approach BAA and organise this if there was sufficient interest. Does anyone have any useful contacts ?

airsmiles

A vivid memory of mine is in the mid/late 1950's taking public coach tours from outside Queen's Building around the airport. On one occasion the coach turned the corner around a blast fence in the BOAC maintainence area and came face to face with a taxiing Brittania. He promptly applied reverse pitch and backed up to give way to the coach. Very impressive to a ten year old!!