who exactly is in control?
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who exactly is in control?
so anyway, there i was in my ivory tower, with the easterly runway active, when a pilot, arriving from the east, requested a straight in for the westerly runway. this was politely denied, due traffic. after landing, the said pilot demanded to know, in quite an irate manner, when the last arrival and departure had been. after a minute doing his sums... (i could tell, his tongue was out the side of his mouth!!) he demanded to know why his requst hadn't been acceded to, as he had the global picture and it would have worked!( it wouldn't have, by the way), but, i decided that i had too much decorum to tell him to p**s off on the freq. but did give him the finger, when his back was turned 
it occured to me that this sort of thing keeps happening... why are we not no.1, why must we slow down, why must we stop climb/descent,we know better, etc. bit of a persecution complex thing in general
personally i do these things just to annoy air crew!..air safety coming second, ha ha!, but i still think that radar, and the overall picture is just a bit better than the view of a few (not all)grumpy bast**ds stuck in their tin pots! it only takes one to get you going
is this just an irish thing, or has it spread further?please tell me i'm not paranoid, or neurotic. has anyone else had similar experiences?
it occured to me that this sort of thing keeps happening... why are we not no.1, why must we slow down, why must we stop climb/descent,we know better, etc. bit of a persecution complex thing in general
personally i do these things just to annoy air crew!..air safety coming second, ha ha!, but i still think that radar, and the overall picture is just a bit better than the view of a few (not all)grumpy bast**ds stuck in their tin pots! it only takes one to get you going
is this just an irish thing, or has it spread further?please tell me i'm not paranoid, or neurotic. has anyone else had similar experiences?
Last edited by beamwidth; 20th Jul 2003 at 01:00.
I'matightbastard
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If it's any help, I'll occaisionally ask for a downwind runway, or to do a 180 on the runway, and the tower usually says yes. If they say they can't then It wouldn't occur to me to argue.
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It happens all the time, with everything we do now. However it isn't necessarily the crews fault its the company pushing and pushing them.
I am fed up of having to justify my actions to crews when all im trying to do is set up the safest most expeditious pattern of traffic I can.
yes they have TCAS but they dont see what i see , they dont have the info that I have on what is also planned to happen , so please let me carry on trying to do the best I can.
Ask if you must but if you are refused accept it, we have often already asked for you before you have even come on frequency we think that far ahead.
I am fed up of having to justify my actions to crews when all im trying to do is set up the safest most expeditious pattern of traffic I can.
yes they have TCAS but they dont see what i see , they dont have the info that I have on what is also planned to happen , so please let me carry on trying to do the best I can.
Ask if you must but if you are refused accept it, we have often already asked for you before you have even come on frequency we think that far ahead.
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thats good, thought that i'd lost the plot there for a while..
dont mean to go off on one, but we all try to facilitate as best we can; its when your professionalism and/or ability is being called into question that i take offence. all us guys and galls have pride in the service we provide; and when some driver thinks that we've given a bad vector, level, etc, they should engage the brain before bitching. theres more than you out there in the wide prairie that is air traffic.
by the way 250kts, it was the other airline based here, and , in my experience, its more prevalent in them, than the boys/girls with the harp on the tail.
dont mean to go off on one, but we all try to facilitate as best we can; its when your professionalism and/or ability is being called into question that i take offence. all us guys and galls have pride in the service we provide; and when some driver thinks that we've given a bad vector, level, etc, they should engage the brain before bitching. theres more than you out there in the wide prairie that is air traffic.
by the way 250kts, it was the other airline based here, and , in my experience, its more prevalent in them, than the boys/girls with the harp on the tail.
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while it is moan time...........
Bloody BEE inbound LFPG via SFD M605 - I vectored to give Pris a nice gap and the pilot demanded explanation for the "big heading changes"!
Wish I had the nuts to tell him on RT to wind his neck in!
rant over
VL
Bloody BEE inbound LFPG via SFD M605 - I vectored to give Pris a nice gap and the pilot demanded explanation for the "big heading changes"!
Wish I had the nuts to tell him on RT to wind his neck in!
rant over
VL
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Yesterday an inbound to Dubai was stopped off at FL280. He wanted to know where the traffic was. "5 miles in your 8 o' clock crossing left to right, a B777". Pilot shocked, "He's not painting on the TCAS!! Oh, there he is". A lot of guys seem to have an unhealthy reliance on TCAS these days. It's become a traffic manager as well, now.
Lucky I don't take any crap
Lucky I don't take any crap
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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Don't get me wrong, I have enormous respect for ATCers, and know first hand that you are nearly all totally dedicated people doing your very best for safety (first) and then expedition.
HOWEVER, if you all pat yourselves and each other on the back and decide that there is no such thing as a lazy or bloody-minded ATCO, nor one who wants to be helpful but is not allowed to because of bloody-minded management, then you are doing your industry a dis-service.
I will cite two examples, both, I hope, non-contentious, but making the point that the best service is sometimes withheld. In order to make them non-contentious I have made both management led.
1) In the period after LARS was withdrawn from Luton, controllers were instructed to refuse service to anyone in the FIR on principle to "make the point" that they no longer offered ATSORA. I certainly flew there at times when for twenty minutes not one single call was made on 129.55, but I was not offered any assistance on filthy days. I don't blame the ATCO - he was only obeying orders - but he had the capacity to be helpful, and wasn't.
2) Crossing the LGW ATZ. I can't remember the details, but there are fixed regulations preventing fixed wing aircraft transitting within the LGW ATZ, meaning that crossings have to be at the OMs, making crossings very difficult, even when traffic is light. Again, service has to be refused for what are not safety or expeditiousness reasons.
Now I am not going to raise examples of individual ATCOs who would not allow activities such as that mentioned at the top of the thread because they cannot be bothered to work out if such a landing would be feasible, because it would cause rancour, and I certainly don't want to do that.
You, on this forum, are demonstrating the fact that you are sufficiently motivated by your jobs to spend extra time here discussing matters of mutual interest and helping pilots understand their worlds a bit better. I am sure that you, every one of you, would give the very, very best service whenever, wherever and to whomsoever you could.
And that's probably true of 95% of ATCOs.
But please don't think that the other 5% don't exist.
And please don't think that those 5% don't cause some pilots to question the altruism and fairness of many ATC refusals.
W
HOWEVER, if you all pat yourselves and each other on the back and decide that there is no such thing as a lazy or bloody-minded ATCO, nor one who wants to be helpful but is not allowed to because of bloody-minded management, then you are doing your industry a dis-service.
I will cite two examples, both, I hope, non-contentious, but making the point that the best service is sometimes withheld. In order to make them non-contentious I have made both management led.
1) In the period after LARS was withdrawn from Luton, controllers were instructed to refuse service to anyone in the FIR on principle to "make the point" that they no longer offered ATSORA. I certainly flew there at times when for twenty minutes not one single call was made on 129.55, but I was not offered any assistance on filthy days. I don't blame the ATCO - he was only obeying orders - but he had the capacity to be helpful, and wasn't.
2) Crossing the LGW ATZ. I can't remember the details, but there are fixed regulations preventing fixed wing aircraft transitting within the LGW ATZ, meaning that crossings have to be at the OMs, making crossings very difficult, even when traffic is light. Again, service has to be refused for what are not safety or expeditiousness reasons.
Now I am not going to raise examples of individual ATCOs who would not allow activities such as that mentioned at the top of the thread because they cannot be bothered to work out if such a landing would be feasible, because it would cause rancour, and I certainly don't want to do that.
You, on this forum, are demonstrating the fact that you are sufficiently motivated by your jobs to spend extra time here discussing matters of mutual interest and helping pilots understand their worlds a bit better. I am sure that you, every one of you, would give the very, very best service whenever, wherever and to whomsoever you could.
And that's probably true of 95% of ATCOs.
But please don't think that the other 5% don't exist.
And please don't think that those 5% don't cause some pilots to question the altruism and fairness of many ATC refusals.
W
Bloody BEE inbound LFPG via SFD M605 - I vectored to give Pris a nice gap and the pilot demanded explanation for the "big heading changes"!
That doesn't mean, of course, that there is any time for argument or complaint on the RT. But questions are sometimes essential.
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I think the last 2 posts are missing the thrust of the thread.
Maybe I'm getting old, but questioning of instructions seems to be becoming the norm. The instructions that are questioned, and the ones we are talking about, are delaying instructions. Sure, sometimes we forget someone, or something, and a reminder doesn't hurt, but this 'questioning' is not about that. It is clearly about pilots seeming to think they will be delayed less if they nag and bitch and moan.
Please don't try and tell us it's not that. We listen day in and day out. You sort of get a feel for those airlines that are worst. Previously, it just wouldn't happen. Maybe commercial pressure is just out of control.
Maybe I'm getting old, but questioning of instructions seems to be becoming the norm. The instructions that are questioned, and the ones we are talking about, are delaying instructions. Sure, sometimes we forget someone, or something, and a reminder doesn't hurt, but this 'questioning' is not about that. It is clearly about pilots seeming to think they will be delayed less if they nag and bitch and moan.
Please don't try and tell us it's not that. We listen day in and day out. You sort of get a feel for those airlines that are worst. Previously, it just wouldn't happen. Maybe commercial pressure is just out of control.
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I had a Swiss A330 inbound to ZRH from the south the other day and I only had 3 aircraft on freq flying toward the holding fix to the west of the field. This tfc has to be sequenced with tfc approaching from the west and southwest which is another sector. So I have to space my tfc in with the tfc from the other sector which are not on my freq. It sounds quiet and when I see that this guy has passed the speed-limit-point and is still shunting, I politely tell him to reduce.
Comes the reply "Where is the traffic" Now if there is no tfc, then I tell the inbounds that there are no ATC speed restrictions and he can happily shunt along.
It seems that folks behave the worst when they're on their home turf.
Sure you appreciate a reminder every now and then, and sure there are ATC's that are downright useless.
It also helps to tell pilots how long they're gonna kept on hdg when they're given vectors. Then there are very few comebacks.
Comes the reply "Where is the traffic" Now if there is no tfc, then I tell the inbounds that there are no ATC speed restrictions and he can happily shunt along.
It seems that folks behave the worst when they're on their home turf.
Sure you appreciate a reminder every now and then, and sure there are ATC's that are downright useless.
It also helps to tell pilots how long they're gonna kept on hdg when they're given vectors. Then there are very few comebacks.
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I think that TCAS has been the main reason for the increase in pilots querying instructions, it has at times been a real bugbear with our unit-where is the NO1, what is our number in traffic etc
I get great pleasure in pointing out non transponding aircraft manouvering close to the zone boundary to make the point-also before I clear you for a visual approach number two you need to SEE the aircraft concerned not have it on TCAS!
I get great pleasure in pointing out non transponding aircraft manouvering close to the zone boundary to make the point-also before I clear you for a visual approach number two you need to SEE the aircraft concerned not have it on TCAS!
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bookworm
you're absolutely right. Pilots requesting clarification is fine - encouraged even!
You are also right about being unable to convey the tone of voice on a BB.
I realise my post could have been better written. The pilot I speak of did use a rather accusational tone with me. In fact, when I later removed the speed restriction I had imposed for the streaming, he replied with words to the effect of;
'What's the point in me speeding up now and wasting more fuel than you've just cost me with your vectors'
Not his exact words, but close.
Anyway - I think it was probably because he's not used to such vectoring. Every day I use big doglegs and speed control to stream traffic (mostly RYR and EZY) for SS and GW on LOREL2Q. Not once has a pilot complained - I think because they realise that being in a nice single file from as far back as MAY means less chance of going round and round at LOREL.
Another reason to encourage pilot visits to our ATSUs!
you're absolutely right. Pilots requesting clarification is fine - encouraged even!
You are also right about being unable to convey the tone of voice on a BB.
I realise my post could have been better written. The pilot I speak of did use a rather accusational tone with me. In fact, when I later removed the speed restriction I had imposed for the streaming, he replied with words to the effect of;
'What's the point in me speeding up now and wasting more fuel than you've just cost me with your vectors'
Not his exact words, but close.
Anyway - I think it was probably because he's not used to such vectoring. Every day I use big doglegs and speed control to stream traffic (mostly RYR and EZY) for SS and GW on LOREL2Q. Not once has a pilot complained - I think because they realise that being in a nice single file from as far back as MAY means less chance of going round and round at LOREL.
Another reason to encourage pilot visits to our ATSUs!
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Beamwidth
you not paranoid!!
it happens all the time - not the majority of crew though - just a small select few -
and in my experience - its not limited to any particular airline - it seems to be across the board!!!
personnally i dont have a problem with crew genuinely querying my actions - after all we all make mistakes and it could save one
- but i do have a problem with the " tone" sometimes employed!!
though - i do try to be generous - and think well the guys prob'ly having a really bad day, the wifes just given him a huge credit card bill, daughters come home with her face pierced, sons crashed the car, dog has crapped in the lounge then he has to come into work............!!!! so who better to take it out on than the poor atco!! hahahhaha
yaffs
you not paranoid!!
it happens all the time - not the majority of crew though - just a small select few -
and in my experience - its not limited to any particular airline - it seems to be across the board!!!
personnally i dont have a problem with crew genuinely querying my actions - after all we all make mistakes and it could save one
- but i do have a problem with the " tone" sometimes employed!!
though - i do try to be generous - and think well the guys prob'ly having a really bad day, the wifes just given him a huge credit card bill, daughters come home with her face pierced, sons crashed the car, dog has crapped in the lounge then he has to come into work............!!!! so who better to take it out on than the poor atco!! hahahhaha
yaffs
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Harps and Shamrocks
Never had any trouble with the Harps, they're very good to work with; and second only to the Shamrocks, who rate No 1 with me for professionalism....at least on the west sectors at London. In 12 flying hours one pilot may do one leg from halfway across the planet......another might do 12 one-hour flights in the dense melting pot of European airspace.....draw your own conclusion!
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Hey beamwidth and drivers. I havent posted in a while but was awoken by this post. Why do the drivers question so many instructions. I don't question why you request descent and 20 miles later I'm still loooking at the same mode c. We all have a job to do. If I refuse you a request or reduce your speed or give you a vector I'm not doing it for a laugh. I'M DOING IT FOR A REASON. Sorry if it doesn't "suit you" but thats life. I recently had a pilot who bitched about being sent to the hold to facilitate an aircraft with a situation. Oh how I laughed to see the harp flying round in circles. I obviously invented the situation for a laugh.........
Lets help each other.
We are all on the same team.
As my old priest used to say, " if we all pull together we will all come together".
I know it's not quite the same but I know what he meant.......
Lets help each other.
We are all on the same team.
As my old priest used to say, " if we all pull together we will all come together".
I know it's not quite the same but I know what he meant.......
Last edited by need to know; 20th Jul 2003 at 00:43.
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Yes. With respect to querying sequencing instructions. I am yet to get challenged when I tell an aircraft "for sequencing (insert track shortening/go fast/speed restriction lifting/long runway closer to their terminal change etc)". If anything I mostly get the word thanks on the end. Now if it is "for sequencing (insert turn/slow down/hold)" there has been many an occasion where a challenge comes from the aircraft. My point being that the actual thing taking place is exactly the same ie: sequencing. I can assure you that stuffing an aircraft around on purpose is not part of the game.
Jerricho is probably the only person i know who stuffs aircraft around and that is not on purpose but due lack of talent
Jerricho is probably the only person i know who stuffs aircraft around and that is not on purpose but due lack of talent