pilots: Have you had an ATCO on your f/d?
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pilots: Have you had an ATCO on your f/d?
Hello all,
As part of an overall attempt to further the practice that was in existance prior to 9/11, whereby current ATC staff were encouraged to arrange familiarisation flights with relevant airlines or aircraft types to get live experience of 'the other side of the mic', I would like to hear from anyone that has recently (last 6 months) had an ATCO on their f/d jumpseat in this capacity.
This is not an official program (yet) but is a number of European ATCOs that are seeing first-hand what the loss of this valuable experience is starting to do with newer controllers. The benefit of pilot-controller cross-experience is hugely beneficial to both sides but of course much more so to the ATCO.
Most of our European Centres, new security procedures notwithstanding, openly welcome operating flight crew to visit and learn more about ATC.
SO, in order to find out whether this practice is still being allowed in some countries, and to further our request for it being reintroduced in others, we would like to hear from anyone who has had, a full-sector, ATC jumpseater in the cockpit for the purposes of observing ATC procedures.
This is not related to ATC staff travel, 'ID flashing', or 'hitching'.
Our intention is to provide a formal channel with interested airlines where a request would be made, with full staff details and requested date of travel, where the airline would then come back with an approval, suggested route, and times. In return of course, we would like to further our 'pilot visits' to atc ops.
Although this relates to Europe, we would welcome any input, worldwide, in terms of what your airline allows, and also any suggestions or comments you may have.
We would prefer not to highlight indiviudal airlines on this board, for the simple reason that jumpseats are a sensitive issue and its probably better dealt with 'off-air'
So please respond by PM or email to me.
1. Have you had anyone recently on the FD
2. Which airline are you with?
3. Do you have any personal thoughts on this issue, or suggestions.
Thanks.
BR.
As part of an overall attempt to further the practice that was in existance prior to 9/11, whereby current ATC staff were encouraged to arrange familiarisation flights with relevant airlines or aircraft types to get live experience of 'the other side of the mic', I would like to hear from anyone that has recently (last 6 months) had an ATCO on their f/d jumpseat in this capacity.
This is not an official program (yet) but is a number of European ATCOs that are seeing first-hand what the loss of this valuable experience is starting to do with newer controllers. The benefit of pilot-controller cross-experience is hugely beneficial to both sides but of course much more so to the ATCO.
Most of our European Centres, new security procedures notwithstanding, openly welcome operating flight crew to visit and learn more about ATC.
SO, in order to find out whether this practice is still being allowed in some countries, and to further our request for it being reintroduced in others, we would like to hear from anyone who has had, a full-sector, ATC jumpseater in the cockpit for the purposes of observing ATC procedures.
This is not related to ATC staff travel, 'ID flashing', or 'hitching'.
Our intention is to provide a formal channel with interested airlines where a request would be made, with full staff details and requested date of travel, where the airline would then come back with an approval, suggested route, and times. In return of course, we would like to further our 'pilot visits' to atc ops.
Although this relates to Europe, we would welcome any input, worldwide, in terms of what your airline allows, and also any suggestions or comments you may have.
We would prefer not to highlight indiviudal airlines on this board, for the simple reason that jumpseats are a sensitive issue and its probably better dealt with 'off-air'
So please respond by PM or email to me.
1. Have you had anyone recently on the FD
2. Which airline are you with?
3. Do you have any personal thoughts on this issue, or suggestions.
Thanks.
BR.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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beaurivage,
Since 9/11 Air Traffic Controllers from the US have not been permitted to take FAM's. We have our fingers crossed in the hope that this valuable training program resumes.
The effect is that newer controllers do not have the opportunity to see how what they do as controllers affects the what occurs in the cockpit.
As new or different aircraft start flying into our airports we lost the ability to question pilots about the operational characteristics of their aircraft (minimum speeds on final, maximum speeds on final, gear / flap speeds, etc), information that we need to run an efficent and safe final.
Mike R
NATCA FWA
Since 9/11 Air Traffic Controllers from the US have not been permitted to take FAM's. We have our fingers crossed in the hope that this valuable training program resumes.
The effect is that newer controllers do not have the opportunity to see how what they do as controllers affects the what occurs in the cockpit.
As new or different aircraft start flying into our airports we lost the ability to question pilots about the operational characteristics of their aircraft (minimum speeds on final, maximum speeds on final, gear / flap speeds, etc), information that we need to run an efficent and safe final.
Mike R
NATCA FWA
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for the reply. Thats exactly what Im talking about - not that in times past everyone would have availed of a fam flight but many did ...
I thought in the states that obs flights were allowed - doesn't FAR121 permit it? Id looked at this recently and made the assumption that it was allowed over there ...
Just checked again and 121.547 [Flight deck access] lists:
(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures
Maybe you could fill me in on that.
Go-arounder thanks for the response also, thats encouraging. From our mgt would have us believe that f-flights are pretty much dead.
Cheers
BR
Thanks for the reply. Thats exactly what Im talking about - not that in times past everyone would have availed of a fam flight but many did ...
I thought in the states that obs flights were allowed - doesn't FAR121 permit it? Id looked at this recently and made the assumption that it was allowed over there ...
Just checked again and 121.547 [Flight deck access] lists:
(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures
Maybe you could fill me in on that.
Go-arounder thanks for the response also, thats encouraging. From our mgt would have us believe that f-flights are pretty much dead.
Cheers
BR
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>Just checked again and 121.547 [Flight deck access] lists:
>(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the >Administrator to observe ATC procedures
TSA regulations prohibits flight deck access, you could be a pilot with the company and you can't ride in the jump seat, so controllers are definitely forbidden access to the jump seat.
I think that even "IF" the FAM program starts again that the restrictions will be so stringent that it won't be worth the hassles involved in getting access to the jump seat.
Mike
NATCA FWA
>(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the >Administrator to observe ATC procedures
TSA regulations prohibits flight deck access, you could be a pilot with the company and you can't ride in the jump seat, so controllers are definitely forbidden access to the jump seat.
I think that even "IF" the FAM program starts again that the restrictions will be so stringent that it won't be worth the hassles involved in getting access to the jump seat.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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Mike;
Incorrect, if you work for the company, you can get access to the jump seat. The reason that no one else can is that the company can not guarantee who you work for. If you are an employee, the computer system will be able access this info...
Scott
Incorrect, if you work for the company, you can get access to the jump seat. The reason that no one else can is that the company can not guarantee who you work for. If you are an employee, the computer system will be able access this info...
Scott
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I fly freight around in the Irish Concorde and I haven't seen an ATCO near the aeroplane in 6 months (ie that's how long I've been flying the beasties).
I am not suprised. The jump seat is tiny and there's no catering.
I would happily fly with an ATCO sitting there.
Perhaps then they would see why we get a tad tense when we get issued with taxi instructions when the captain is barking instructions at us (the FO's). (ie really noisy with the props etc )
When I was in Oz I never saw an ATCO on the j/s either (Dash 8).
Pity. I've strolled up and down a few Towers etc in my day. Loved every visit.
I am not suprised. The jump seat is tiny and there's no catering.
I would happily fly with an ATCO sitting there.
Perhaps then they would see why we get a tad tense when we get issued with taxi instructions when the captain is barking instructions at us (the FO's). (ie really noisy with the props etc )
When I was in Oz I never saw an ATCO on the j/s either (Dash 8).
Pity. I've strolled up and down a few Towers etc in my day. Loved every visit.
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In France we usally can travel in the cockpit with AF, just asking it at the beginnig of the flight and showing a professional card.
We can also apply for a "technical flight" (once every 2-3 years)and then we follow the AF crew from Paris to Paris.
And I don't know if you do that too ,but we have a ppl training at ATCO school and we can get about 12 hours flight paid by administration....It's very nice and very usefull whan you handle lots of VFR flights
We can also apply for a "technical flight" (once every 2-3 years)and then we follow the AF crew from Paris to Paris.
And I don't know if you do that too ,but we have a ppl training at ATCO school and we can get about 12 hours flight paid by administration....It's very nice and very usefull whan you handle lots of VFR flights
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With regards to the UK, in particular NATS.
We have a short-haul BA scheme returning in October.
Here at Heathrow we also have an Aer-Lingus fam flight scheme.
We have a short-haul BA scheme returning in October.
Here at Heathrow we also have an Aer-Lingus fam flight scheme.
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We had a trainee from Bournemouth on the flight deck last December for a fam flight - I work for BA. I've also had an ATCO sit in on a simulator check, which was also a worthwhile experience.
For US controllers, keep your fingers crossed. The cut and paste refers to a pilot(hehe) program to open the JS back up. The program includes controllers. It looks like the TSA and Flight standards types are okay with it, now you just have to convince your side of the FAA its a good thing. I X'ed out the names below. Source of document is my airlines jump seat coordinator.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Yesterday I met with senior representatives of the TSA and FAA, specifically Mr. XX (TSA) and Mr. XX (FAA) and their staffs to discuss the status of the Cockpit Access Security System (CASS) proposal and the reopening of offline jumpseats. I have some good news that I want to pass on.
The outcome of the meeting is that the TSA/FAA have verbally approved the CASS as a "Pilot Program." A Pilot Program is an effort approved for a specific period of time with a specific number of participants. This approach seemed appropriate due to the complexity and technical challenges of the effort.
Participants in the CASS Pilot Program will be authorized to utilize each other's jumpseats as regulated by the FARs. The authorized CASS Pilot Program participants will be all ATA member airlines (U.S.), their subsidiaries, FAA air traffic controllers and DoD couriers. The period of the CASS Pilot Program will be for 6 months beginning with the approval of the CASS Pilot Program Plan as described in the following paragraphs. The 6 month period of performance will be capped with a review of the program by the TSA and FAA. Barring any major hiccups, the CASS program would be opened up to other carriers at that time.
The implementation schedule that we agreed upon looks like this:
- The ATA (to read SCHOETTMER/me) will submit a management plan addressing the CASS Pilot Program to the TSA. This document will primarily be a summation of information previously submitted to the TSA/FAA describing the program plus an implementation schedule. I have committed to submit this plan not later than July 10, 2003.
- The TSA/FAA will work to approve the CASS Pilot Program management plan within 30 days. Additionally, the TSA will direct local TSA officials to permit implementation of the CASS at ATA member airlines once the airline has a viable in-house program developed. This will be approved through each airline's security plan by the Principal Security Inspector.
- The FARs already permit offline jumpseating. However, FAA approval to participate in the CASS Pilot Program will be approved via Ops Spec, paragraph AO25 (most likely per each airline's jumpseat procedures manual or other appropriate manual).
- Off-line jumpseating would be reopened at that time for participants.
Each ATA member airline can come into the program as a participant when 1) they are confident their internal system is complete 2) their security plan has been approved to participate 3) they have received ops specs approval.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Yesterday I met with senior representatives of the TSA and FAA, specifically Mr. XX (TSA) and Mr. XX (FAA) and their staffs to discuss the status of the Cockpit Access Security System (CASS) proposal and the reopening of offline jumpseats. I have some good news that I want to pass on.
The outcome of the meeting is that the TSA/FAA have verbally approved the CASS as a "Pilot Program." A Pilot Program is an effort approved for a specific period of time with a specific number of participants. This approach seemed appropriate due to the complexity and technical challenges of the effort.
Participants in the CASS Pilot Program will be authorized to utilize each other's jumpseats as regulated by the FARs. The authorized CASS Pilot Program participants will be all ATA member airlines (U.S.), their subsidiaries, FAA air traffic controllers and DoD couriers. The period of the CASS Pilot Program will be for 6 months beginning with the approval of the CASS Pilot Program Plan as described in the following paragraphs. The 6 month period of performance will be capped with a review of the program by the TSA and FAA. Barring any major hiccups, the CASS program would be opened up to other carriers at that time.
The implementation schedule that we agreed upon looks like this:
- The ATA (to read SCHOETTMER/me) will submit a management plan addressing the CASS Pilot Program to the TSA. This document will primarily be a summation of information previously submitted to the TSA/FAA describing the program plus an implementation schedule. I have committed to submit this plan not later than July 10, 2003.
- The TSA/FAA will work to approve the CASS Pilot Program management plan within 30 days. Additionally, the TSA will direct local TSA officials to permit implementation of the CASS at ATA member airlines once the airline has a viable in-house program developed. This will be approved through each airline's security plan by the Principal Security Inspector.
- The FARs already permit offline jumpseating. However, FAA approval to participate in the CASS Pilot Program will be approved via Ops Spec, paragraph AO25 (most likely per each airline's jumpseat procedures manual or other appropriate manual).
- Off-line jumpseating would be reopened at that time for participants.
Each ATA member airline can come into the program as a participant when 1) they are confident their internal system is complete 2) their security plan has been approved to participate 3) they have received ops specs approval.
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In the UK, the students at Bournemouth are still sent to BA for a short course in Airline Ops and CRM. Included in this is usually 2 jump seat rides to either domestic or european destinations.
The opportunity to attend a Sim check has grown since closing the door to the flight deck, and has been utilised by several that I know of - but at the end of the day its down to whether the crews are comfortable with you sat there. Nothing can beat the thrill of a proper flight though
The opportunity to attend a Sim check has grown since closing the door to the flight deck, and has been utilised by several that I know of - but at the end of the day its down to whether the crews are comfortable with you sat there. Nothing can beat the thrill of a proper flight though
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I like the idea of ATCO attending the sim check, especially if we could do the RT side of things, i.e pilots get proper ATC, we could do it for TRUCE and all is worthwhile from both sides of the RT.
