PPL'rs life stories?
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PPL'rs life stories?
As a student ppl I've learned a lot of priceless stuff from lurking on these boards (whilst still recognising I am at the bottom of the food chain and know nothing). 
However the time has come to post a (possibly stupid) question...
In a number of threads there have been references to 'ppl'rs giving their life stories' over the radio. What does this mean? Am I one of them?
In my reply to 'pass your message' I would typically say:
G-XXXX, PA28 from X to Y, position, heading, altitude, QNH XXXX, VFR, estimating XXXX at time XXXX, request joining instructions (or whatever).
Does this constitute a 'life story'? Am I telling you stuff you don't want to know? I'm conscious of how long it takes to say all this stuff, and always rehearse it before transmitting so that I can get it all out without any pauses, errs or erms. I'm conscious that everybody else listening is infinitely more experienced than me, so I try not to sound like a complete nobber.
So what do other ppl'rs tell you that you don't need to know? What do you want to hear?
All constructive replies gratefully received!
Many thanks, Dave.
However the time has come to post a (possibly stupid) question...
In a number of threads there have been references to 'ppl'rs giving their life stories' over the radio. What does this mean? Am I one of them?
In my reply to 'pass your message' I would typically say:
G-XXXX, PA28 from X to Y, position, heading, altitude, QNH XXXX, VFR, estimating XXXX at time XXXX, request joining instructions (or whatever).
Does this constitute a 'life story'? Am I telling you stuff you don't want to know? I'm conscious of how long it takes to say all this stuff, and always rehearse it before transmitting so that I can get it all out without any pauses, errs or erms. I'm conscious that everybody else listening is infinitely more experienced than me, so I try not to sound like a complete nobber.
So what do other ppl'rs tell you that you don't need to know? What do you want to hear?
All constructive replies gratefully received!
Many thanks, Dave.
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Calls to ATC
Possibly drop the heading but otherwise OK providing its not to quick as the ATCO has to write it down. Some units are adopting the following G-xxxx inbound ( obviously only if you're landing) or G-xxxx transit , This allows ATCO's to select appropriate coloured flight progress strip. The ATCO will then reply G-xxxx pass your message ,then you can give your details as described. 
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As a LARS controller I would agree that I don't need to know the heading, 'cos I will be able to guesstimate it from your A to B routeing or if/when I have you identified.
I would also add that I presume you are VFR unless you say otherwise and I don't need estimates for reporting points. In fact, I often don't need reporting points because I can see you, unless it's really busy when I might use them so I don't forget about you.
As a PPL I was taught to give headings on first contact but since becoming an ATCO I have never understood why.
I would also add that I presume you are VFR unless you say otherwise and I don't need estimates for reporting points. In fact, I often don't need reporting points because I can see you, unless it's really busy when I might use them so I don't forget about you.
As a PPL I was taught to give headings on first contact but since becoming an ATCO I have never understood why.
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Thanks for the replies. It seems that student ppls are taught to give info that controllers don't need, then. I will speak to my instructor about leaving out the bits you mention and see what he says. However I suspect I may have to continue giving you my 'life story' until I get my licence!
Dave
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Hi David....as an approach controller the one thing I personally loathe is the person ....and it matters not whether they are a PPL or 25000 hours.....who launches in to a long and involved story without waiting to be told pass your message ...You did say that you gave details only AFTER an acknowledgement...but one of the worst things is to see a nice sequence of aircraft all about to hit the ILS and someone then proceeds to give age inside leg measurement and a hello to all who know me...and said aircraft shoot through ....pain in the bum...happy flying and NEVER be afraid to ask questions!! Regards
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Hi David
If it is 'London Information' (or Scottish Information) you call - then the position report, next point and estimate are essential, because it is a non radar environment.
Sounds to me that you are showing good RT discipline and wouldnt change it.
If it is 'London Information' (or Scottish Information) you call - then the position report, next point and estimate are essential, because it is a non radar environment.
Sounds to me that you are showing good RT discipline and wouldnt change it.
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Life Stories
Doesn't sound too bad. But "Life stories" here include: Persons on board, fuel remaining, "I'm on a private VFR flight" - and more. OK, if you've got the "Go ahead/pass your message" bit. I suspect you must stick to the long story until you've passed your test with the examiner. (This is not as stupid as it sounds!) 
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Perhaps an example from a recent flight (I was in the back, so it wasn't me 
).
Flight already working London Info is asked to call an airfield which will be oveflown shortly. Called the the airfield and 10 minutes later were returned to the London Info frequency. London Info says "xxxx welcome back" - there's a hint here, isn't there? However it was missed, because xxxx launches into the spiel "xxxx is a nnnn from yyyy to zzzz, position is .... height 2000ft, VFR, estimating xxxxx, squawking 7000 .... etc. ".
It was obvious (to me) the cause was pilot nervousness, uncertain of what to say, unfamiliarity with the area, not sure who was talking to and why, not so hot on English, and not wanting to get it wrong.
If you miss something out and ATC need to now it, they'll ask! Its no big deal
). Flight already working London Info is asked to call an airfield which will be oveflown shortly. Called the the airfield and 10 minutes later were returned to the London Info frequency. London Info says "xxxx welcome back" - there's a hint here, isn't there? However it was missed, because xxxx launches into the spiel "xxxx is a nnnn from yyyy to zzzz, position is .... height 2000ft, VFR, estimating xxxxx, squawking 7000 .... etc. ".
It was obvious (to me) the cause was pilot nervousness, uncertain of what to say, unfamiliarity with the area, not sure who was talking to and why, not so hot on English, and not wanting to get it wrong.
If you miss something out and ATC need to now it, they'll ask! Its no big deal
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Wizbigpig
As an experienced PPL, I would like to update my knowledge with this latest development.
Please would you reference the page number in CAP 413 so that I can read, digest and understand it.
Many thanks
F3G
Some units are adopting the following G-xxxx inbound ( obviously only if you're landing) or G-xxxx transit
Please would you reference the page number in CAP 413 so that I can read, digest and understand it.
Many thanks
F3G
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Hi F3G
Quote :
Please would you reference the page number in CAP 413 so that I can read, digest and understand it.
Its in CAP413 Chapter 3 paragraph 5.1
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf
RF
Quote :
Please would you reference the page number in CAP 413 so that I can read, digest and understand it.
Its in CAP413 Chapter 3 paragraph 5.1
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf
RF
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Rodger
Thanks for the reference, unfortunately I can't find the new phrase, so I am assuming that it is non-standard in the same way that 'Radar Heading' is.
Might be a good idea if a knowledgeable ATCO from the ATC forum posted this new approach to the Private Flying Forum so that we understand what it means, avoiding the 'umh umh say again' syndrome
Does sound like a good idea, anything that aids communications gets my vote.
F3G
Thanks for the reference, unfortunately I can't find the new phrase, so I am assuming that it is non-standard in the same way that 'Radar Heading' is.
Might be a good idea if a knowledgeable ATCO from the ATC forum posted this new approach to the Private Flying Forum so that we understand what it means, avoiding the 'umh umh say again' syndrome
Does sound like a good idea, anything that aids communications gets my vote.
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I don't understand why you use these very long winded initial calls. No wonder you have a frequency overload situation every now and then. 
What I would say (and been thought to say) after I have been told to go ahead is the following:
"G-XXXX, C172, approaching (entry point or similar), 1500ft, for landing."
If I had filed a flightplan for the flight I would omit a/c type and instead tell that I am on a flightplan. I might add my transponder code also if appropriate.
My impression is that the controller will not need to know where you have departed (no "from X to Y"). As have been mentioned before your heading is useless info. Estimates are unnecessary when the controller has radar. And about QNH - wouldn't the controller tell you the QNH in the approach clearence?
C172pilot
What I would say (and been thought to say) after I have been told to go ahead is the following:
"G-XXXX, C172, approaching (entry point or similar), 1500ft, for landing."
If I had filed a flightplan for the flight I would omit a/c type and instead tell that I am on a flightplan. I might add my transponder code also if appropriate.
My impression is that the controller will not need to know where you have departed (no "from X to Y"). As have been mentioned before your heading is useless info. Estimates are unnecessary when the controller has radar. And about QNH - wouldn't the controller tell you the QNH in the approach clearence?
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Section 5.1 is unambiguous.
'The service that an aircraft requires should be passed in the initial call to the ATSU;' It then gives an example.
On initial contact you can say 'XXXX Approach this is G-YYYY requesting zone transit' or 'zone entry and joining instructions' or whatever you want. Saying what you want on the initial call helps the controller to be prepared for what is coming next.
This is what Wizbigpig was referring to.
'The service that an aircraft requires should be passed in the initial call to the ATSU;' It then gives an example.
On initial contact you can say 'XXXX Approach this is G-YYYY requesting zone transit' or 'zone entry and joining instructions' or whatever you want. Saying what you want on the initial call helps the controller to be prepared for what is coming next.
This is what Wizbigpig was referring to.
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Maybe I should have choosen another subject for my first post. Not making a very good first impression by questioning your procedures perhaps...
But anyway - yes, 3 Greens, I did follow the link to that CAP document and read about the procedures. What I do not understand is why in that case there are procedures telling you to tell the controllers things they do not need to hear (and in addition most people seems to be fine about that?). Or did I get this wrong? Controllers - do you disagree about that the information I suggested was unnecessary in my other post in fact is unnnecessery?
Anyway if the procedures tell you as a pilot, you should include certain things in your call that you know the controller does not need. Is it then responsible to block the frequency by making an unnecessary long call in which only half of the information is needed by ATC? What if someone else needs the frequency for more urgent matters?
As an experienced pilot maybe you are confident to cope with such a situation but as a student I tend think that not getting through on the radio when I need to make a call about something that it is important to say within a certain time, is adding another stress factor.
C172pilot (again)
But anyway - yes, 3 Greens, I did follow the link to that CAP document and read about the procedures. What I do not understand is why in that case there are procedures telling you to tell the controllers things they do not need to hear (and in addition most people seems to be fine about that?). Or did I get this wrong? Controllers - do you disagree about that the information I suggested was unnecessary in my other post in fact is unnnecessery?
Anyway if the procedures tell you as a pilot, you should include certain things in your call that you know the controller does not need. Is it then responsible to block the frequency by making an unnecessary long call in which only half of the information is needed by ATC? What if someone else needs the frequency for more urgent matters?
As an experienced pilot maybe you are confident to cope with such a situation but as a student I tend think that not getting through on the radio when I need to make a call about something that it is important to say within a certain time, is adding another stress factor.
C172pilot
(again)
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F3G
It helps enormously if a request or intention is stated on initial call. . . . "XXXXXXX Approach, GABCD, for transit" or ". . . . . inbound" or ". . . . . for Flight Information Service", etc. The controller picks up the correct strip and can prioritise. CAP413 is sort of getting there, how about Ch 2 para 7.2.3 'An aircraft should request the service required on initial contact when freecalling a ground station'?
vintage ATCO
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It helps enormously if a request or intention is stated on initial call. . . . "XXXXXXX Approach, GABCD, for transit" or ". . . . . inbound" or ". . . . . for Flight Information Service", etc. The controller picks up the correct strip and can prioritise. CAP413 is sort of getting there, how about Ch 2 para 7.2.3 'An aircraft should request the service required on initial contact when freecalling a ground station'?
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Again this seems to be a real life situations. Which the SRG seem to ignore.
We as instructors are taught to do it the CAA way. Which means we follow CAP 413.
There is not alot we can do about it because that is what the examiner expects when we gve them the student for test.
What they do after that is really up to the great learning curve that I am still at the bottom.
If you peeps at ATC think there is to much info passed get CAP 413 changed otherwise PPL's are going to continue popping out giving their life historys.
I must admit I tell the students to give to much info
CAPHAD
The if you don't need it you can forget it instead of another 3 RT calls trying to get the info out of them.
MJ
We as instructors are taught to do it the CAA way. Which means we follow CAP 413.
There is not alot we can do about it because that is what the examiner expects when we gve them the student for test.
What they do after that is really up to the great learning curve that I am still at the bottom.
If you peeps at ATC think there is to much info passed get CAP 413 changed otherwise PPL's are going to continue popping out giving their life historys.
I must admit I tell the students to give to much info
CAPHAD
The if you don't need it you can forget it instead of another 3 RT calls trying to get the info out of them.
MJ
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RodgerF/Vintage ATCO
Thanks for the clarification - all is now clear and I shall be using this approach from my next flight onwards. (Except that I must remember to 'foget it' for my next 1 hour JAR currency training flight where I would undoubtedly be criticised by the examiner for using non standard calls.)
Mad Jock
Not a tilt at instructors (who only follow the CAA syllabus), but we PPLs are also taught that standard phraseology saves lives, so use it!
It's not surprising therefore that PPLs who try and achieve good levels of airmanship remember this learning and follow the CAP phrases.
Thanks for the clarification - all is now clear and I shall be using this approach from my next flight onwards. (Except that I must remember to 'foget it' for my next 1 hour JAR currency training flight where I would undoubtedly be criticised by the examiner for using non standard calls.)
Mad Jock
Not a tilt at instructors (who only follow the CAA syllabus), but we PPLs are also taught that standard phraseology saves lives, so use it!
It's not surprising therefore that PPLs who try and achieve good levels of airmanship remember this learning and follow the CAP phrases.
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As a matter of interest, why are aircraft type, departure and destination so important to ATCers?
A typical converstion I have heard many times would go:
"Anytown radar this is G-xxxx Bigtown 2,500' VFR request zone transit routing via the XYZ to leave at Smalltown."
other conversations take place with this and other aircraft, possibly including the zone transit clearance, then
"G-xxxx pass your aircraft type and departure and destination details."
I can understand why you might want the type to judge speed (but then why not ask the speed?) and to give visual traffic information, but then why ask relatively late in the conversation? And what does a knowledge of departure and destination bring to the party?
(I get the impression it's just to fill spaces on the strip, but happy to be corrected.)
Not arguing, just wondering.
W
A typical converstion I have heard many times would go:
"Anytown radar this is G-xxxx Bigtown 2,500' VFR request zone transit routing via the XYZ to leave at Smalltown."
other conversations take place with this and other aircraft, possibly including the zone transit clearance, then
"G-xxxx pass your aircraft type and departure and destination details."
I can understand why you might want the type to judge speed (but then why not ask the speed?) and to give visual traffic information, but then why ask relatively late in the conversation? And what does a knowledge of departure and destination bring to the party?
(I get the impression it's just to fill spaces on the strip, but happy to be corrected.)
Not arguing, just wondering.
W
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As far as the type is concerned you're quite right, it's mainly performance and traffic information.
As for destination and departure - lots of reasons.
1) Gives you an idea where to look on the screen of they don't know or say where they are (the number of position reports saying '4' north of......... and you point out that they're actually '14' north of........ for example is amazing)
2) Gives you an idea of the route if they don't say what it is
3) Gives you an idea of who to chuck them to next
(As you may have noticed these are all mainly looking at it from a LARS perspective)
4) Gives you an idea who / where to notify if anything goes wrong (departure if the worst happens and you want to find out anything, destination if they have an R/T fail whilst with you and you can notify the intended aerodrome of arrival).
The list is not inexhaustive - but these are a few goods ones
As for destination and departure - lots of reasons.
1) Gives you an idea where to look on the screen of they don't know or say where they are (the number of position reports saying '4' north of......... and you point out that they're actually '14' north of........ for example is amazing
)2) Gives you an idea of the route if they don't say what it is
3) Gives you an idea of who to chuck them to next
(As you may have noticed these are all mainly looking at it from a LARS perspective)
4) Gives you an idea who / where to notify if anything goes wrong (departure if the worst happens and you want to find out anything, destination if they have an R/T fail whilst with you and you can notify the intended aerodrome of arrival).
The list is not inexhaustive - but these are a few goods ones