Swanwick is a pleasure says Winstanley
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Swanwick is a pleasure says Winstanley
Evidence from Paul Winstanley to the Select Committee 7th May 2003..............
Q1224 Chairman: Would that be altered by new air traffic methods of control, new equipment in the cockpit, new ways of organising—
Mr Winstanley: New equipment always helps. The move to Swanwick saw an increase in capacity. If you measured my workload compared to my workload when I was at West Drayton under the old system, there has been a capacity gain on my workload because my workload has reduced—
Q1225 Chairman: I hardly like to ask this, but is it all working?
Mr Winstanley: It is all working and it is a pleasure to work there.
What planet is this guy living on? It isn't a pleasure for me to work there and my workload has certainly not been reduced.
But then he was on the NTT, so he would say that wouldn't he?
Q1224 Chairman: Would that be altered by new air traffic methods of control, new equipment in the cockpit, new ways of organising—
Mr Winstanley: New equipment always helps. The move to Swanwick saw an increase in capacity. If you measured my workload compared to my workload when I was at West Drayton under the old system, there has been a capacity gain on my workload because my workload has reduced—
Q1225 Chairman: I hardly like to ask this, but is it all working?
Mr Winstanley: It is all working and it is a pleasure to work there.
What planet is this guy living on? It isn't a pleasure for me to work there and my workload has certainly not been reduced.
But then he was on the NTT, so he would say that wouldn't he?
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I actually agree with Mr Winstanley; as I believe most controllers at LACC do. Shame about the noisy minority. There are the ones that get noticed by the media. We, the silent majority, like Swanwick.
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I agree with the evidence to a certain degree. There is no doubt that this system is capable of shifting significantly more traffic than we could at LATCC. It is also the case that in general the workload has been reduced in that the tactical has the dedicated planner-when was the last time you as a tactical answered more than a handfull of phone calls in a duty?
It has taken awhile for me come round but this place is streets ahead of what we had 2 years ago.
barley, LACC won't suit everybody but if your workload hasn't reduced then you are definitely doing something wrong!!
It has taken awhile for me come round but this place is streets ahead of what we had 2 years ago.
barley, LACC won't suit everybody but if your workload hasn't reduced then you are definitely doing something wrong!!
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I heard a rumour that this is the same guy who thinks that the underworked, overpaid ATCO three's at Airports should get paid a lot less than they do now!!!!!
Why worry about management when there are guys like that on the BEC!!!
Why worry about management when there are guys like that on the BEC!!!
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Surface Wind
Not just the ATCO 3's in for a shafting.
With the extra millions in savings that Richard has promised to make..............
I hear that Management are hoping later this year to re-grade existing ATCO2 airports as ATCO3. The big chiefs (those that were never ATCOs) believe that those at tower only units should never be a grade above ATCOs holding tower and APC radar validations
ATCO2s above the 3 scale will mark time untill 3s catch up. New starts will start on ATCO 3 scale.
LACC/LTCC staff to get a 'traffic level' allowance in order to try to attract staff from MACC and ScOACC to the busier units.
all makes sense - but it wont be liked
With the extra millions in savings that Richard has promised to make..............
I hear that Management are hoping later this year to re-grade existing ATCO2 airports as ATCO3. The big chiefs (those that were never ATCOs) believe that those at tower only units should never be a grade above ATCOs holding tower and APC radar validations
ATCO2s above the 3 scale will mark time untill 3s catch up. New starts will start on ATCO 3 scale.
LACC/LTCC staff to get a 'traffic level' allowance in order to try to attract staff from MACC and ScOACC to the busier units.
all makes sense - but it wont be liked
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Regrading at Swangatte
There is a move afoot to re-grade the operational controller job to ATCO 1. The task at Swanwick consists of all the previous LATCC sector controller job description plus the major portion of the LATCC chief sector controller job description, which of course was done by an ATCO1. The benefits are recognised as being a reversal of the drift out of the OPS room, and the re-introduction of an identifiable career structure advancement plan. Although there have been back door promotions, where VN's have actually been re-written to fit the pre-selected candidate, and a number of made-up acting ATCO 1's from the LATCC move, there has been no promotion "proper" for some considerable time. This is a sensible policy which negates the need for peculiar bonus and short term quickfix solutions; after all, if you are going to have to spend your life working at the screens at least there will be the incentive of a continuous incremental scale that reflects our core business.
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No change there then. If you questioned or dared to criticise anything when this was being set up you were written off as a sniper. If it was all great and anyone who thought otherwise was just a moaner, why then did they have to change the fonts so I could read the screen? Why were our concerns about the staffing levels required ignored. Where is the 40% capacity benefit that was promised? Or did we spend £700million just so that Paul Winstanley and friends could say it was a pleasure to work there?
The only reason Winstanley was questioned by the Select Committee was that he is supposed to represent the views of us all. I and many colleagues object to our valid views being written off as moans.
He did not represent my view - and neither can you claim to represent the viewpoint of the majority.
The only reason Winstanley was questioned by the Select Committee was that he is supposed to represent the views of us all. I and many colleagues object to our valid views being written off as moans.
He did not represent my view - and neither can you claim to represent the viewpoint of the majority.
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Barleymow - its time to grow up.
Surface wind - you need a reality check.
First things first. What right do any of us so called professionals have to slag any colleague off on an anonymous forum? Union reps. love them or hate them, are elected representatives. If you don't like what they are doing don't elect them.
Before you rush to do so Mr Barleymow and Mr Surface wind, a word of advise and one or two facts to get you thinking.
I attended the recent reps briefing on the proposed new salaries and structure at Bredbury hall. Mr Winstanley was unavailable on the first day( I don't know why) but his contribution on the second day was exactly what I want from people who represent ATCOs. The Reps were in danger of not getting the complete briefing (warts and all) in particular regarding the possible difficulties of the new pay structure. Mr Winstanley spoke clearly without using any "management speak" and informed the Reps of the real issues facing the membership.
He gave it "warts and all" using language like station grading because that is what it is!
The Reps learnt more about the difficulties of the new structure on the second day because of Mr Winstanleys forthright and honest approach to the membership as a whole.
So Mr Surface wind, take some time out and have a think?
I for one believe that the membership is best served by reps who actually do what they are suppose to do and communicate the true difficulties. Or do you believe Mr Winstanley should have said nothing? If he had the Reps briefing would have been a sham.
Its not about cutting anyone's pay or making LACC an ATCO1 unit. It is a serious attempt to make the structure more transparent. A full series of briefings will take place if the membership endorses the proposals.
Contrary to Mr Surface winds belief, this is not Mr Winstanleys idea nor the BECs - its as a direct result of motions accepted at last years conference. Get a grip - we are now criticising our elected representatives for doing what we asked them to do!
Mr Barley mow you obviously have an axe to grind with the individual. I suggest that attacking the individual through an anonymous forum is nothing short of cowardly.
So what if he thinks LACC is a good place to work? He also thinks Man United are the greatest team in Europe. So F##king what!
You are dead right on one issue. He didn't represent your views on the font size.
But then he couldn't could he. He took a year off from union activities!!!!!
Surface wind - you need a reality check.
First things first. What right do any of us so called professionals have to slag any colleague off on an anonymous forum? Union reps. love them or hate them, are elected representatives. If you don't like what they are doing don't elect them.
Before you rush to do so Mr Barleymow and Mr Surface wind, a word of advise and one or two facts to get you thinking.
I attended the recent reps briefing on the proposed new salaries and structure at Bredbury hall. Mr Winstanley was unavailable on the first day( I don't know why) but his contribution on the second day was exactly what I want from people who represent ATCOs. The Reps were in danger of not getting the complete briefing (warts and all) in particular regarding the possible difficulties of the new pay structure. Mr Winstanley spoke clearly without using any "management speak" and informed the Reps of the real issues facing the membership.
He gave it "warts and all" using language like station grading because that is what it is!
The Reps learnt more about the difficulties of the new structure on the second day because of Mr Winstanleys forthright and honest approach to the membership as a whole.
So Mr Surface wind, take some time out and have a think?
I for one believe that the membership is best served by reps who actually do what they are suppose to do and communicate the true difficulties. Or do you believe Mr Winstanley should have said nothing? If he had the Reps briefing would have been a sham.
Its not about cutting anyone's pay or making LACC an ATCO1 unit. It is a serious attempt to make the structure more transparent. A full series of briefings will take place if the membership endorses the proposals.
Contrary to Mr Surface winds belief, this is not Mr Winstanleys idea nor the BECs - its as a direct result of motions accepted at last years conference. Get a grip - we are now criticising our elected representatives for doing what we asked them to do!
Mr Barley mow you obviously have an axe to grind with the individual. I suggest that attacking the individual through an anonymous forum is nothing short of cowardly.
So what if he thinks LACC is a good place to work? He also thinks Man United are the greatest team in Europe. So F##king what!
You are dead right on one issue. He didn't represent your views on the font size.
But then he couldn't could he. He took a year off from union activities!!!!!
""So what if he thinks LACC is a good place to work? He also thinks Man United are the greatest team in Europe. So F##king what!""
So he has a history of poor judgement then !!!
So he has a history of poor judgement then !!!
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All getting a bit personal isn`t it? Surely the point is that someone who is supposed to represent our views is saying something which very few of us could agree with. I am sure that most of us find the whole Swanwick experience disappointing. Paul Winstanley`s remarks are quite puzzling, and one has to ask what his agenda is.
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I don't hear loads of people disappointed with the "Swanwick experience"-in fact far from it. There was a realisation that all would not be well in the first few months but things are slowly coming together.
Traffic is rising and overloads are not significantly if any higher. People are more confident with the system which has allowed a gradual increase in TSFs. The 40% increase will happen but you'd be the first to complain if all the TSFs were raised by that level so soon. However the role of the LAS needs to be clarified and a few more of them need to take more interest on what is happening on their sectors, but the re-structure could well take care of this one!!
The canteen leaves alot to be desired but that should be a relatively easy one to fix. The building is 20x better than the one we left but so it should be. The local management "appear" to be a different proposition to the one we had last year and again for the better although i suspect their honeymoon period is drawing to a close. 70% of staff voted for the present WP despite a few niggles and 0630 starts for the core morning.
As for the ORO: rostering is getting better BUT ONLY now that the watches are more involved. We are years away from a significant increase in staff but then we always were!
So overall things are better but obviously not for everyone and the union can only TRY to represent everyone and don't forget they are working ATCOs as well. How do you all spend your days off-not in front of Gwynneth I'll bet??
If you think things are bad now try to get an update on the pension meeting which took place earlier this week. Start to exercise minds on how to proceed over the next few weeks and the relatively minor moans we may have now will be put on the back burner. The reps can only be as good as the strength of the membership so if you are unhappy let them know otherwise they can't even try to fix it.
And for the record you are WELL OUT OF ORDER mentioning names on an anonymous forum.
Traffic is rising and overloads are not significantly if any higher. People are more confident with the system which has allowed a gradual increase in TSFs. The 40% increase will happen but you'd be the first to complain if all the TSFs were raised by that level so soon. However the role of the LAS needs to be clarified and a few more of them need to take more interest on what is happening on their sectors, but the re-structure could well take care of this one!!
The canteen leaves alot to be desired but that should be a relatively easy one to fix. The building is 20x better than the one we left but so it should be. The local management "appear" to be a different proposition to the one we had last year and again for the better although i suspect their honeymoon period is drawing to a close. 70% of staff voted for the present WP despite a few niggles and 0630 starts for the core morning.
As for the ORO: rostering is getting better BUT ONLY now that the watches are more involved. We are years away from a significant increase in staff but then we always were!
So overall things are better but obviously not for everyone and the union can only TRY to represent everyone and don't forget they are working ATCOs as well. How do you all spend your days off-not in front of Gwynneth I'll bet??
If you think things are bad now try to get an update on the pension meeting which took place earlier this week. Start to exercise minds on how to proceed over the next few weeks and the relatively minor moans we may have now will be put on the back burner. The reps can only be as good as the strength of the membership so if you are unhappy let them know otherwise they can't even try to fix it.
And for the record you are WELL OUT OF ORDER mentioning names on an anonymous forum.
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ALL
Mr Winstanley is far Is far from unique.
I don't care what his views are on LACC because that is simply not important.
As for his agenda LOKI, well its simple - to tell us what is really going on! He always has done.
Those that attended any of his briefings will vouch for that.
J17 Ask your rep?
I'll stand by what I have said to be a true representation of events.
We might not like what was said, but you can't criticise any union rep for telling the truth. That's what they are suppose to do!
If they wont I suggest you give Mr Winstanley a call, his number is available in the contact list!
Be honest though - leave your name!
If you want to point the finger - the fault rests with any rep or member of the BEC who will not communicate the "big" picture.
The union for all its faults is only as good as its membership.
Quite frankly the membership sucks!
Have the debate about the current structure proposals here, but have an intelligent debate. (An extra £10,000 for LL controllers caused less angst than Winstanleys "LACC is a good place to work")
Again love them or hate them. Those active in the Union deserve our support, they might not always get it right, but they do the job because they give a ****. Too many of us are quick to criticise but reluctant to get our hands dirty. Those Reps we have are generally good. If they quit and walk away what do we get? Ask yourself that?
Lets have the debate, put your rep on the spot and ask him or her what the hell is being proposed?
If they won't tell you (Winstanley fashion) BIN THEM!
Its time we looked at ourselves. Slanging individuals off by name is at best unprofessional.
250kts is spot on "we are WELL OUT OF ORDER mentioning names on an anonymous forum"
Its time the membership joined in a reasoned debate rather than spending their time having a go at Prospect Reps.
Mr Winstanley is far Is far from unique.
I don't care what his views are on LACC because that is simply not important.
As for his agenda LOKI, well its simple - to tell us what is really going on! He always has done.
Those that attended any of his briefings will vouch for that.
J17 Ask your rep?
I'll stand by what I have said to be a true representation of events.
We might not like what was said, but you can't criticise any union rep for telling the truth. That's what they are suppose to do!
If they wont I suggest you give Mr Winstanley a call, his number is available in the contact list!
Be honest though - leave your name!
If you want to point the finger - the fault rests with any rep or member of the BEC who will not communicate the "big" picture.
The union for all its faults is only as good as its membership.
Quite frankly the membership sucks!
Have the debate about the current structure proposals here, but have an intelligent debate. (An extra £10,000 for LL controllers caused less angst than Winstanleys "LACC is a good place to work")
Again love them or hate them. Those active in the Union deserve our support, they might not always get it right, but they do the job because they give a ****. Too many of us are quick to criticise but reluctant to get our hands dirty. Those Reps we have are generally good. If they quit and walk away what do we get? Ask yourself that?
Lets have the debate, put your rep on the spot and ask him or her what the hell is being proposed?
If they won't tell you (Winstanley fashion) BIN THEM!
Its time we looked at ourselves. Slanging individuals off by name is at best unprofessional.
250kts is spot on "we are WELL OUT OF ORDER mentioning names on an anonymous forum"
Its time the membership joined in a reasoned debate rather than spending their time having a go at Prospect Reps.
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Is LACC a pleasure to work in? Well obviously thats a subjective question. However I have yet to meet one single ATCO/ATSA who would prefer to go back to working as they did at West Drayton.
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I have yet to meet an ATCO/ATSA who would prefer to go back to working as they did at West Drayton
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Good point ARKADY
You will not certainly not meet all the ATSA's that were made redundant.....they would have liked the opportunity to still be working at West Drayton! As for the original post, be aware that ATCO1 is a quasi-management grade.
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Steady on Mr Dansak - if you mean by coward that I am saying things anonymously that I have not been prepared to say openly, then you are much mistaken and I can assure you that I have had many a discussion with PW. It may have slipped your notice but Prune is an anonymous forum. But here we go again -through every available channel (both Union and Management) problems have been openly brought to people's attention by me and colleagues. Instead of addressing the problem, a denial that any exist is the standard response, which continues to be the case. Try reading some of the full and many Select Committee Reports and you may find some reasons to be concerned. Only for grown ups though.
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arkady & 055166k
Are you guys SERIOUSLY suggesting that LATCC was better than LACC because there were more assistants, in a sort of 'Jobs For The Boys' way???
Seems to me, seeing a LOT of ATSA's in Ops here sitting around reading books, that its a pretty cushy life now!
Seems to me, seeing a LOT of ATSA's in Ops here sitting around reading books, that its a pretty cushy life now!
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Tell you what: If Swanwick is as rubbish as some of you think, why don't you all boogger off back to LATCC, recomission your flat tops and mediator stuff, re-boot the 9020 and then put all the Swanwick equipment in a fleet of vans and send it up to Prestwick? I admit that I've not even seen your equipment (ooer!) but it has got to be better than the pish we have to put up with.
It would save NATS a fortune on McNERC
It would save NATS a fortune on McNERC