Heathrow get what they deserve
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Scott,
It would be very interesting to see the formula used by the USA. I suspect there might be quite a few changes to the 'ranking' of UK units should we adopt it !!!
It would be very interesting to see the formula used by the USA. I suspect there might be quite a few changes to the 'ranking' of UK units should we adopt it !!!
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In all seriousness if there is a major problem recruiting and retaining staff at a unit then maybe an increase in the differentials is the way to go. Certainly this would apply to LACC/LTCC/EGLL and possibly KK as well. I keep my fingers crossed for what may come out of the re-structure next year.
Certainly pay by validation is not the way to go or people will be tempted to carry on doing a sector just for the money even though they may be struggling with the number of sectors they do.
Certainly pay by validation is not the way to go or people will be tempted to carry on doing a sector just for the money even though they may be struggling with the number of sectors they do.
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Do we really believe that there will be any financial recompense in the form of a pay rise, let alone on the basis of re-structuring, in the coming 12 months? (I know it was part of the last deal, but I guess they will merrily say that they need to delay any implementation by 5 years!)
Let's face it, we'll be lucky if they start paying into the pension fund again.... And if they do that, then they certainly will not be looking at splashing out on a new structure which, from what I can tell, will not give them the savings that they want, let alone to pay for what we want!
All will be fun whilst trying to save another £25m....! Perhaps the plants will go in ops rooms, and the price of coffee will go up!?
Let's face it, we'll be lucky if they start paying into the pension fund again.... And if they do that, then they certainly will not be looking at splashing out on a new structure which, from what I can tell, will not give them the savings that they want, let alone to pay for what we want!
All will be fun whilst trying to save another £25m....! Perhaps the plants will go in ops rooms, and the price of coffee will go up!?
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Jerricho
The last time I was seen with an alcopop, I was taking it out of your hand so that i could carry you out of Waxy O'Connor's.
Yellow Snow
Well said, my man. For too long have other units been moaning about Heathrow asking for more. That nit wit boasting about his cars and hot tub, oh well done mate hope the sun is shining in Aberdeen. We shift the planes, so give us more cash. Then if everyone else wants it, come and shift jets. Properly.
The last time I was seen with an alcopop, I was taking it out of your hand so that i could carry you out of Waxy O'Connor's.
Yellow Snow
Well said, my man. For too long have other units been moaning about Heathrow asking for more. That nit wit boasting about his cars and hot tub, oh well done mate hope the sun is shining in Aberdeen. We shift the planes, so give us more cash. Then if everyone else wants it, come and shift jets. Properly.
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Point Seven
Your post smacks of the arrogance which others in our hallowed fraternity all too readily associate with a minority of Heathrow ATCOs. You do yourself and your unit no favours.
We all know that Heathrow is one of the busiest units in Europe, but just cos' you can do it there, doesnt mean you would be able to do so elsewhere - as several of your former colleagues have found out.
At a place like Heathrow, you are only useful if you survive until the end of the next working day.
Your post smacks of the arrogance which others in our hallowed fraternity all too readily associate with a minority of Heathrow ATCOs. You do yourself and your unit no favours.
We all know that Heathrow is one of the busiest units in Europe, but just cos' you can do it there, doesnt mean you would be able to do so elsewhere - as several of your former colleagues have found out.
At a place like Heathrow, you are only useful if you survive until the end of the next working day.
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Niknak,
In black and white .7's post may seem arrogant, but knowing him it's more about frustration and the fact that management don't seem to understand what a pi$$take the staffing is. None of the five watches are anywhere near proper staffing resulting in long continued working periods, minimum breaks and GMC bandboxed.
The situation will only get worse in the next 12 months with 2-4 leaving and 1-2 of the girlies going on maternity leave not to mention the Thames to TC split in November! Our traffic is 5% down at the moment due to SARS and the war, given current staffing some of us think this is a good thing (the traffic level not the circumstances)
Don't get me wrong, I like many others love working at EGLL and have no wish to leave but with current staffing and disparity with substantially quieter units to the north, we deserve a substantial payrise to attract and retain ATCO's. As does LTCC and Swanwick.
If you want the money come and get it. Be it area, approach or aerodrome.
From my earlier posting I'm still waiting for those quieter units to tell us busier units why we shouldn't be paid more.
Rant over
chomp chomp chomp
In black and white .7's post may seem arrogant, but knowing him it's more about frustration and the fact that management don't seem to understand what a pi$$take the staffing is. None of the five watches are anywhere near proper staffing resulting in long continued working periods, minimum breaks and GMC bandboxed.
The situation will only get worse in the next 12 months with 2-4 leaving and 1-2 of the girlies going on maternity leave not to mention the Thames to TC split in November! Our traffic is 5% down at the moment due to SARS and the war, given current staffing some of us think this is a good thing (the traffic level not the circumstances)
Don't get me wrong, I like many others love working at EGLL and have no wish to leave but with current staffing and disparity with substantially quieter units to the north, we deserve a substantial payrise to attract and retain ATCO's. As does LTCC and Swanwick.
If you want the money come and get it. Be it area, approach or aerodrome.
From my earlier posting I'm still waiting for those quieter units to tell us busier units why we shouldn't be paid more.
Rant over
chomp chomp chomp
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Yellow Snow ,
I thought you were paid more. Compare top of the ATCO 2 scale to the top of the ATCO3 scale there is a difference.
I am still uncertain if this is a wind up or not , however something has to be done to attract people away from other units to work in the south-east in particularly at EGLL , EGKK and TC. Such agreements should not be hidden away and should be open to debate throughout Prospect and NATS management.
I do get very annoyed when it would appear in some eyes that level of traffic handled is the only indication of how hard other units work. Complexity of traffic handled is a far better indication.
I thought you were paid more. Compare top of the ATCO 2 scale to the top of the ATCO3 scale there is a difference.
I am still uncertain if this is a wind up or not , however something has to be done to attract people away from other units to work in the south-east in particularly at EGLL , EGKK and TC. Such agreements should not be hidden away and should be open to debate throughout Prospect and NATS management.
I do get very annoyed when it would appear in some eyes that level of traffic handled is the only indication of how hard other units work. Complexity of traffic handled is a far better indication.
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But you guys at the busier units already do get paid more as ATCO 2 grades.......here we go again! 
Sorry to point this out but the main reason that nobody wants to go to LL or KK is the reputation given by the few nutters that think their own arses dont stink. Perhaps if the "prima-dona" attitude exuding from the deep south was to be overcome, many others would want to be posted there to release those who want out. As has been said, the minority responsible are doing the units no favours.
There is no dispute that you are busy...just stop telling us all the time! WE KNOW!
PS the sun is shining in Aberdeen...a tropical +18 in fact!
Sorry to point this out but the main reason that nobody wants to go to LL or KK is the reputation given by the few nutters that think their own arses dont stink. Perhaps if the "prima-dona" attitude exuding from the deep south was to be overcome, many others would want to be posted there to release those who want out. As has been said, the minority responsible are doing the units no favours.
There is no dispute that you are busy...just stop telling us all the time! WE KNOW!
PS the sun is shining in Aberdeen...a tropical +18 in fact!
niknak
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Yellow, et all .............
I have no doubt that you work hard enough to deserve the extra pay, I also know of the staffing problems you have.
But, the fact remains that you guys choose to work there, (and you're braver souls than I for doing so), even if I could hack the system, I wouldn't work at Heathrow for all the tea in China.
Others may be jealous of your retention bonus, which although a lot of money in the short term, it is nothing for the crap which you have to tolerate.
For reasons that have already been expansively espoused on this post, given my present quality of life and working conditions, I am very happy to stay where I am.
Best regards.
I have no doubt that you work hard enough to deserve the extra pay, I also know of the staffing problems you have.
But, the fact remains that you guys choose to work there, (and you're braver souls than I for doing so), even if I could hack the system, I wouldn't work at Heathrow for all the tea in China.
Others may be jealous of your retention bonus, which although a lot of money in the short term, it is nothing for the crap which you have to tolerate.
For reasons that have already been expansively espoused on this post, given my present quality of life and working conditions, I am very happy to stay where I am.
Best regards.
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Boys and girls
This whole thread is a wind up. I used to enjoy fishing but the whole escapade was always beset with the problem that you always stood a chance of not actually catching anything. Not the case when you're playing on PPRUNE!!!
You are not salmon.
This whole thread is a wind up. I used to enjoy fishing but the whole escapade was always beset with the problem that you always stood a chance of not actually catching anything. Not the case when you're playing on PPRUNE!!!
You are not salmon.
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Jaguar Fan Club
Believe me guys my arse does stink, bad, really bad. but that won't change a thing as someone said you wouldn't come here for all the tea in China
What's true from talking to my friends in the company throughout the country is that the belief that LL is full of prima donnas is more bull$hit than this actual thread. The statement that the unit is, is often heard from those who know nothing about the place, they just resort to the time old 'bash the ATCOs at the busy units because they want more money, because we don't want them to have more we'll slag 'em off as arrogant and prima donna esque' Of course this only comes from those ATCOs who are arrogant and ignorant at the quieter units
To those of you who think that the difference between ATCO 3 and 2 grades fairly compensates us for the traffic and standard of living, your either on the wind up this time, or fat dumb and happy at your ATCO 3/sleepy ATCO2
unit!
Flower
Have you visited EGLL TC or Swanwick and seen just how fcuk!ng complex the traffic can be never mind the numbers.
Jaguar Fan Club
So do you deny the fact we should be paid considerably more?
Niknak
Err no. I admit I love my job but it doesn't mean I asked to work here, I was posted from the college. Those that do want get out face a 5-8 year wait literally because no-one wants to come here so you have to leave the company or dare I say it fail to validate from the college and get posted somewhere you can use both tickets and get a good standard of living!
As some of you have indicated an extra 15K per annum wouldn't be incentive enough to sell your 4 bed detached house up north to come down here so maybe we should push for more
Seriousley to all those guys and girls that would like to come to EGLL, TC or Swanwick from the (for the sake of arguement) northern units, how much extra wedge per year would it take to make it worth your while?
Edited because I'm tired from pushing tin
Sorry to point this out but the main reason no one wants to come LL or KK is the reputation given by the few nutters that think their own arses don't stink
What's true from talking to my friends in the company throughout the country is that the belief that LL is full of prima donnas is more bull$hit than this actual thread. The statement that the unit is, is often heard from those who know nothing about the place, they just resort to the time old 'bash the ATCOs at the busy units because they want more money, because we don't want them to have more we'll slag 'em off as arrogant and prima donna esque' Of course this only comes from those ATCOs who are arrogant and ignorant at the quieter units
To those of you who think that the difference between ATCO 3 and 2 grades fairly compensates us for the traffic and standard of living, your either on the wind up this time, or fat dumb and happy at your ATCO 3/sleepy ATCO2
unit!Flower
I do get very annoyed when it would appear in some eyes that level of traffic handled is the only indication of how hard other units work. Complexity of traffic handled is a far better indication.
Jaguar Fan Club
There is no dispute that you are busy...just stop telling us all the time! WE KNOW!
Niknak
But, the fact remains that you guys choose work there
As some of you have indicated an extra 15K per annum wouldn't be incentive enough to sell your 4 bed detached house up north to come down here so maybe we should push for more
Seriousley to all those guys and girls that would like to come to EGLL, TC or Swanwick from the (for the sake of arguement) northern units, how much extra wedge per year would it take to make it worth your while?
Edited because I'm tired from pushing tin
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Yellow snow ,
Of course I have been to LL ,KK and TC, but please don't think we sit on our fat arses doing nothing all day. Come see that we also have a job to do
We may not have your density of traffic , and yes I am well aware of the hastle you get , but Im just saying if you think our job is a an easy one you are also very misinformed.
Sort out the conflictions we have to do daily without the luxury of CAS, GA pilots who havent a flippin clue , Integrating fast military Aircraft with civil air traffic . The grass isn't as green as you may think.
I am seriously considering a move down towards the SE , the only thing putting me off are the living costs. These as I previously stated need to be addressed before others will consider leaving there 4 bedroom homes for a shoebox. Having lived in a decent sized home for over 8 years now why should the company expect me to up everything to live in inferior accomodation. The Staff manual indicates that you should live in equivalent accomodation when moved to an area with a higher cost of living , however you look at theamounts offered to recompense and they are laughable.
To live in anything approaching my current home they would have to offer me at least an additional £200 000 . NATS are not going to do that are they. The small increase in salary will not cover the additional living costs either.
A massive overhaul of relocation needs to happen, those of us at our "cosy" ATCO 3 units will move but only if the conditions are right.
Of course I have been to LL ,KK and TC, but please don't think we sit on our fat arses doing nothing all day. Come see that we also have a job to do
We may not have your density of traffic , and yes I am well aware of the hastle you get , but Im just saying if you think our job is a an easy one you are also very misinformed.
Sort out the conflictions we have to do daily without the luxury of CAS, GA pilots who havent a flippin clue , Integrating fast military Aircraft with civil air traffic . The grass isn't as green as you may think.
I am seriously considering a move down towards the SE , the only thing putting me off are the living costs. These as I previously stated need to be addressed before others will consider leaving there 4 bedroom homes for a shoebox. Having lived in a decent sized home for over 8 years now why should the company expect me to up everything to live in inferior accomodation. The Staff manual indicates that you should live in equivalent accomodation when moved to an area with a higher cost of living , however you look at theamounts offered to recompense and they are laughable.
To live in anything approaching my current home they would have to offer me at least an additional £200 000 . NATS are not going to do that are they. The small increase in salary will not cover the additional living costs either.
A massive overhaul of relocation needs to happen, those of us at our "cosy" ATCO 3 units will move but only if the conditions are right.
Last edited by flower; 17th Apr 2003 at 07:36.
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While I'm not going to get into the old 'we're busier/have more complex traffic - pay us more!' chestnut, the fact remains that staffing levels at Heathrow are bad, and are only going to get worse as the year progresses.
As for the fact that all of us want to stay here, or even wanted to come here in the first place, well I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. Many ATCOs who have validated in the last few years didn't request Heathrow, and a very large proportion of present ATCOs want to get out. A friend of mine actually requested Heathrow Tower as a posting, but didn't get it, and is now over the moon, having seen first hand what it's like. In the past few years we've seen quite a few resignations, and unless something is done to increase the attractiveness of the unit, then things are going to get very much worse.
Morale of Heathrow ATCOs is low, and I know we're not unique in that respect, but we see people resigning to go to non-NATS units for a better quality of life, less trainees being posted in, a lot of the younger ATCOs already looking elsewhere after only a year (sometimes less!) or so after validation, staffing levels decreasing at what seems like a monthly rate, and no incentive to stay. The thing that I guess got people to stay here in the past, that it is such a fun job if you ignore all the stuff going on around you, is having less and less influence.
Heathrow, rightly or wrongly, is seen as the premier unit........Things need to be done to make people WANT to come here. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe get all the students doing the Approach Radar course to spend a week here, to show them that we're not all arrogant (we'll do it when Capt. Spunkfarter, Yellow Snow and Point Seven are on leave.....? We are now targetting the incoming OJT six-weekers to those who have expressed an interest in eventually being posted here, which is a step forward. The fact we're now taking OJT at all is good, though indicative of a lack of validation trainees. Like I said, I don't have all the answers, but 15k a year would certainly add to the attractiveness, surely? Who knows, I may even be able to start dreaming about buying a one bed shoebox then!
At the base level it's supply and demand. If staff numbers keep dropping, and with Thames going to TC and taking yet more tower validations, then something's got to happen. If not, then delays will increase, 4 mile spacing will be the norm, airlines will go ape, and all this when we should be looking to increase staff numbers long-term, as when T5 is operational, there will be three GMC controllers!
Gonzo.
As for the fact that all of us want to stay here, or even wanted to come here in the first place, well I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. Many ATCOs who have validated in the last few years didn't request Heathrow, and a very large proportion of present ATCOs want to get out. A friend of mine actually requested Heathrow Tower as a posting, but didn't get it, and is now over the moon, having seen first hand what it's like. In the past few years we've seen quite a few resignations, and unless something is done to increase the attractiveness of the unit, then things are going to get very much worse.
Morale of Heathrow ATCOs is low, and I know we're not unique in that respect, but we see people resigning to go to non-NATS units for a better quality of life, less trainees being posted in, a lot of the younger ATCOs already looking elsewhere after only a year (sometimes less!) or so after validation, staffing levels decreasing at what seems like a monthly rate, and no incentive to stay. The thing that I guess got people to stay here in the past, that it is such a fun job if you ignore all the stuff going on around you, is having less and less influence.
Heathrow, rightly or wrongly, is seen as the premier unit........Things need to be done to make people WANT to come here. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe get all the students doing the Approach Radar course to spend a week here, to show them that we're not all arrogant (we'll do it when Capt. Spunkfarter, Yellow Snow and Point Seven are on leave.....
? We are now targetting the incoming OJT six-weekers to those who have expressed an interest in eventually being posted here, which is a step forward. The fact we're now taking OJT at all is good, though indicative of a lack of validation trainees. Like I said, I don't have all the answers, but 15k a year would certainly add to the attractiveness, surely? Who knows, I may even be able to start dreaming about buying a one bed shoebox then!At the base level it's supply and demand. If staff numbers keep dropping, and with Thames going to TC and taking yet more tower validations, then something's got to happen. If not, then delays will increase, 4 mile spacing will be the norm, airlines will go ape, and all this when we should be looking to increase staff numbers long-term, as when T5 is operational, there will be three GMC controllers!
Gonzo.
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quite obviously this was a wind up - otherwise the boys at swanwick and tc would be moaning at not getting paid it too!!!
and yep there is a problem attracting folk to these units - but i dont think more pay would attract em -
the relocation package is not worth making that move - the whole point about a relocation package is that you are supposed to ba able to live in a similar house in a similar location - and until that is addresssed i dont reckon there'll be many takers - but i dont reckon that would get much support from the folk already there even if it meant more bums on seats would it??!!!!
and yep there is a problem attracting folk to these units - but i dont think more pay would attract em -
the relocation package is not worth making that move - the whole point about a relocation package is that you are supposed to ba able to live in a similar house in a similar location - and until that is addresssed i dont reckon there'll be many takers - but i dont reckon that would get much support from the folk already there even if it meant more bums on seats would it??!!!!
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This may be a first but well said Gonzo.
Speaking, for those who don't know me, as someone who resigning from LL Twr after about 18 months valid to go work at a non-NATS unit doing both Twr and radar I think I have something to add to this "debate" and can speak from knowing both sides.
Firstly you wouldn't get me back for 15K, not for 3 times that in fact. Yes it could be good fun but as Gonzo says the staffing and more impolrtantly the "management" is dire. And its got much worse since I left I'm told.
But that said working with class D airspace and the FIR is certainly no picnic. I have certainly faced situations far more complex and had busier sessions than anything I faced at Heathrow. Sure the intensity and volume isn't their; but then neither are the procedures to deal with what for this unit has been a massive increase in traffic over a very short space of time. Added to this the much lower cost of living, the fact that we are well staffed (we frequently have more controllers on duty than LL TWR inspite the fact that at the most we run 4 positions), well run and generally appreciated by management why opn earth would I want to go back to LL. This is without mentioning the fact that I now have a radar ticket, a Met ticket and don't go home every day wondering why the hell I bother.
If enough people at LL leave sooner or later something will have to be done so in a way I guess you have your fate in your hands-sorry.
Speaking, for those who don't know me, as someone who resigning from LL Twr after about 18 months valid to go work at a non-NATS unit doing both Twr and radar I think I have something to add to this "debate" and can speak from knowing both sides.
Firstly you wouldn't get me back for 15K, not for 3 times that in fact. Yes it could be good fun but as Gonzo says the staffing and more impolrtantly the "management" is dire. And its got much worse since I left I'm told.
But that said working with class D airspace and the FIR is certainly no picnic. I have certainly faced situations far more complex and had busier sessions than anything I faced at Heathrow. Sure the intensity and volume isn't their; but then neither are the procedures to deal with what for this unit has been a massive increase in traffic over a very short space of time. Added to this the much lower cost of living, the fact that we are well staffed (we frequently have more controllers on duty than LL TWR inspite the fact that at the most we run 4 positions), well run and generally appreciated by management why opn earth would I want to go back to LL. This is without mentioning the fact that I now have a radar ticket, a Met ticket and don't go home every day wondering why the hell I bother.
If enough people at LL leave sooner or later something will have to be done so in a way I guess you have your fate in your hands-sorry.
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Yellow Snow....
Just imagine if the post-9/11 downturn had never happened, no Iraq war and no SARS. We would have broken records again over the summer of 2002, and this summer would be even busier. Maybe then something would have been done earlier. It may well be helping us in the short term, in easing the pressure, but could it be that the downturn has actually worked against us in the long run? If we were running to 1350 movements a day during the week as per 2001, what sort of flow would have been required to get the same effect as the 17% reduction for the introduction of the new stands. Can you imagine how much more pressure we'd have been under from BA?
Gonzo.
Just imagine if the post-9/11 downturn had never happened, no Iraq war and no SARS. We would have broken records again over the summer of 2002, and this summer would be even busier. Maybe then something would have been done earlier. It may well be helping us in the short term, in easing the pressure, but could it be that the downturn has actually worked against us in the long run? If we were running to 1350 movements a day during the week as per 2001, what sort of flow would have been required to get the same effect as the 17% reduction for the introduction of the new stands. Can you imagine how much more pressure we'd have been under from BA?
Gonzo.
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Flower,
That'll be me then..........but I haven't been up your way for a while now
Barney x
GA pilots who havent a flippin clue
Barney x
Last edited by Barney_Gumble; 17th Apr 2003 at 20:05.
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Barney ,
No you havent been up here recently , Mind you I don't remember making any complaints.
Better come up again soon though so I can check!!
No you havent been up here recently , Mind you I don't remember making any complaints.
Better come up again soon though so I can check!!
Last edited by flower; 17th Apr 2003 at 20:16.