how do ATC think?
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how do ATC think?
First off let me say I am no ATC controller!
But however I have always wondered how ATC "think" and their thoughts towards those blips on the screen. For example, are you bothered if you see someone in a Pa28 doing fairly steep durns/large variations in altitude with all them trail sgwiggles on your screen, and you know he's attempting aero's over a populated area....do you just mind your own business, as long as his blip is still there on the screen?
Also, I have always been reluctant to go lower than 1,500ft whilst on Mode C when I am with a service such as a LARS but in Class G. I always seem to think that the ATC will inform the CAA if I go lower than 1,500ft over a dense area?
What goes through your head when you hear something along the lines of : "G-XXX descending to 500ft for visual manouvering"
Do you think "Ey up, this guy shouldn't be that low" or again, do you just think "Ah well, he's bleeping away nicely, I don't mind".
What if the same pilot went down to 500ft without informing you? Would it tick you off and would you say something? I always notify of altitude changes when flying around Matz areas and when using a RIS/RAS but hardly ever on a FIS unless they ask.
Thanks for any comments.
But however I have always wondered how ATC "think" and their thoughts towards those blips on the screen. For example, are you bothered if you see someone in a Pa28 doing fairly steep durns/large variations in altitude with all them trail sgwiggles on your screen, and you know he's attempting aero's over a populated area....do you just mind your own business, as long as his blip is still there on the screen?
Also, I have always been reluctant to go lower than 1,500ft whilst on Mode C when I am with a service such as a LARS but in Class G. I always seem to think that the ATC will inform the CAA if I go lower than 1,500ft over a dense area?
What goes through your head when you hear something along the lines of : "G-XXX descending to 500ft for visual manouvering"
Do you think "Ey up, this guy shouldn't be that low" or again, do you just think "Ah well, he's bleeping away nicely, I don't mind".
What if the same pilot went down to 500ft without informing you? Would it tick you off and would you say something? I always notify of altitude changes when flying around Matz areas and when using a RIS/RAS but hardly ever on a FIS unless they ask.
Thanks for any comments.
niknak
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First of all, we aren't the Police, MI5, the CIA or that lady from No 42 with the twitchy curtains - although some people think we are, and most NIMBYs think we should be!
Basically, as a pilot, it's up to you to adhere to the rules of the air and the Air Navigation Order (A.N.O).
If we see you deliberately commiting an reportable offence, then we have a duty to report it.
Equally, if we consider that you've been doing something which may contravene the A.N.O. , but it's not clear to us if you were doing it deliberately or in ignorance, then we have the option of discussing the matter with you if you want to do so, or reporting it, or doing both.
I suspect that the vast majority of low or "dangerous" flying complaints which actually end up in court are bought to the attention of the CAA by the general public, and not ATC or other aviation professionals.
Only a few airport based radar systems in the UK have recording facilities, so the majority of evidence in such court cases is backed up by the National Air Traffic Services en route radar recordings, which is rarely reliable as court evidence at low level.
We're not in the business of looking to trip you up at the first opportunity, but if a pilot sets out to deliberately p*@s someone off, it's highly likely they'll succeed sooner rather than later, sometimes encouraging us to start the reporting process.
Basically, as a pilot, it's up to you to adhere to the rules of the air and the Air Navigation Order (A.N.O).
If we see you deliberately commiting an reportable offence, then we have a duty to report it.
Equally, if we consider that you've been doing something which may contravene the A.N.O. , but it's not clear to us if you were doing it deliberately or in ignorance, then we have the option of discussing the matter with you if you want to do so, or reporting it, or doing both.
I suspect that the vast majority of low or "dangerous" flying complaints which actually end up in court are bought to the attention of the CAA by the general public, and not ATC or other aviation professionals.
Only a few airport based radar systems in the UK have recording facilities, so the majority of evidence in such court cases is backed up by the National Air Traffic Services en route radar recordings, which is rarely reliable as court evidence at low level.
We're not in the business of looking to trip you up at the first opportunity, but if a pilot sets out to deliberately p*@s someone off, it's highly likely they'll succeed sooner rather than later, sometimes encouraging us to start the reporting process.
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As said we are not there to plice the skies - but if I saw you descending quickly I might ask if you are OK.
The issue of breaking low flying rules is not really ours. You should know the rules. If, however, we were phoned about an alleged breach then we are onbliged to give all the information to the authorities.
But the rules are for the protection of you, your aircraft and more imprtantly people on the ground. If the engine did go pop and you were below the 1500'/500' rules then you are in the pooh! If you were to hurt or cause a fatality I think that you would be up for manslaughter.
The issue of breaking low flying rules is not really ours. You should know the rules. If, however, we were phoned about an alleged breach then we are onbliged to give all the information to the authorities.
But the rules are for the protection of you, your aircraft and more imprtantly people on the ground. If the engine did go pop and you were below the 1500'/500' rules then you are in the pooh! If you were to hurt or cause a fatality I think that you would be up for manslaughter.
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First off let me say I am no ATC controller!
I always notify of altitude changes when flying around Matz areas and when using a RIS/RAS but hardly ever on a FIS
But as others have said, we're not the police (Unless it's a blatant breach of legislation - then it has to be reported by us). You as a pilot are meant to have the personal responsibility of how to conduct yourself within the law. To be quite honest we have better things to do (like providing the service) and just end up being witnesses sometimes should you transgress the rules seriously.
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quote:
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I've always wondered what goes through the mind of the ATC!
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It is not usually a long journey !
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I've always wondered what goes through the mind of the ATC!
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It is not usually a long journey !
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Note to Chilli Monster
Chilli
quote:
RAS it's a good idea to request
actually RAS it's COMPULSORY to request
AIP ENR 1-6-1-2 3.1.1 (d) refers
OBK!
I would also point out to you as a non-ATC'er Pilot that RAS is only available to IFR flights. (para (a))
quote:
RAS it's a good idea to request
actually RAS it's COMPULSORY to request
AIP ENR 1-6-1-2 3.1.1 (d) refers
OBK!
I would also point out to you as a non-ATC'er Pilot that RAS is only available to IFR flights. (para (a))
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eastern wiseguy
I would also point out to you as a non-ATC'er Pilot that RAS is only available to IFR flights. (para (a))
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OBK!
Firstly, in case you think that any of my comments are anti genaeral aviation, I'm one of the many ATCOs who also holds a PPL.
Believe me, we have far more important things to think about than checking whether a light a/c under a FIS is too low or performing aeros. You can be sure as hell that we're not watching you that closely
. The public will do that for us. If you were doing it under a RIS then we'd probably first ask if you were OK, then if you were, probably what the hell you were up to.
If a PPL is stupid enough to try aeros in a PA28, the wings will probably drop off and there will be one less idoit on earth
I know that's a little harsh but I would often like to know what PPLs are thinking about. I'm sure SOME of them must have had their brains removed as soon as their licence dropped onto their doormat
As some who provides a LARS service, if you've got Mode C then I would ask you to use it. We find a very useful tool for providing traffic info. & separation. Mainly to keep a check on your maximum altitude when descending IFR traffic over the top of you rather than checking to see if you've ducked down to 500ft(at which point we're probably not picking up your squawk at all).
Finally, what goes through my mind. Usually:-
Who's making the coffee?
When's my next break?
Firstly, in case you think that any of my comments are anti genaeral aviation, I'm one of the many ATCOs who also holds a PPL.
Believe me, we have far more important things to think about than checking whether a light a/c under a FIS is too low or performing aeros. You can be sure as hell that we're not watching you that closely
. The public will do that for us. If you were doing it under a RIS then we'd probably first ask if you were OK, then if you were, probably what the hell you were up to.
are you bothered if you see someone in a Pa28 doing fairly steep durns/large variations in altitude .....attempting aero's.....
I know that's a little harsh but I would often like to know what PPLs are thinking about. I'm sure SOME of them must have had their brains removed as soon as their licence dropped onto their doormat As some who provides a LARS service, if you've got Mode C then I would ask you to use it. We find a very useful tool for providing traffic info. & separation. Mainly to keep a check on your maximum altitude when descending IFR traffic over the top of you rather than checking to see if you've ducked down to 500ft(at which point we're probably not picking up your squawk at all).
Finally, what goes through my mind. Usually:-
Who's making the coffee?
When's my next break?
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Chilli
quote:
semi-sarcastic
unfortunately, pilots reading our threads think that ATCO's actually know what they're talking . When they read your semi-sarcastic pearls of wisdom, they then don't give level change reports under RAS because the great Chilli Monster said they didn't have to.
semi-sarcastic
unfortunately, pilots reading our threads think that ATCO's actually know what they're talking . When they read your semi-sarcastic pearls of wisdom, they then don't give level change reports under RAS because the great Chilli Monster said they didn't have to.
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What am I thinking?
Normally, 'why is that chimp flying around on a 7000 with his Mode C switched off, forcing all my RAS traffic to avoid him by 5nm'
I know some a/c are not fitted with mode C (Is it a cost saving or space/weight saving thing?) but to fly around with it turned off in class G is, omho, bad airmanship! A collegue had an airprox which could have easily been avoided if the civil aircraft involved had his Mode C selected.
If you are at say 4000' with no Mode C, not talking to anyone, and in a nice little bit of VMC then you are blocking sfc - FL245 for any RAS traffic in the area. You are also forcing extra calls to be made to RIS traffic. If you are manouvering laterally, then you will be affecting all traffic within, say, a 10nm radius in the lower and middle air.
It is also nice now to see some LARS units now asking aircraft to 'Squawk Mode C if able' as part of their initial spiel.
I have seen a few articles now in the PILOT type magazines explaining the need for Mode C. I even read about pilots deliberately switching it off because that was the norm in some other european countries, but it's not in the UK. Please pass it on to your flightline buddies.
Squawk Mode C
Normally, 'why is that chimp flying around on a 7000 with his Mode C switched off, forcing all my RAS traffic to avoid him by 5nm'
I know some a/c are not fitted with mode C (Is it a cost saving or space/weight saving thing?) but to fly around with it turned off in class G is, omho, bad airmanship! A collegue had an airprox which could have easily been avoided if the civil aircraft involved had his Mode C selected.
If you are at say 4000' with no Mode C, not talking to anyone, and in a nice little bit of VMC then you are blocking sfc - FL245 for any RAS traffic in the area. You are also forcing extra calls to be made to RIS traffic. If you are manouvering laterally, then you will be affecting all traffic within, say, a 10nm radius in the lower and middle air.
It is also nice now to see some LARS units now asking aircraft to 'Squawk Mode C if able' as part of their initial spiel.
I have seen a few articles now in the PILOT type magazines explaining the need for Mode C. I even read about pilots deliberately switching it off because that was the norm in some other european countries, but it's not in the UK. Please pass it on to your flightline buddies.
Squawk Mode C
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Not having Mode C is a cost issue, at least usually in my experience: most of the planes I fly (rented) have had Mode C fitted in the past, then the encoder has gone u/s and as it's not essential for a C of A renewal, cash-strapped FTO's don't repair it.
Doing my IMC rating recently was (this will probably horrify the ATCOs out there!) the first time I had ever flown with 2 VORs, ILS or DME: the plane I usually fly has only 1 VOR, no ILS (even LLZs don't seem to work), and a very nice vintage ADF. Oh, and GPS, but of course I'm not allowed to use that to navigate with...
Tim
Doing my IMC rating recently was (this will probably horrify the ATCOs out there!) the first time I had ever flown with 2 VORs, ILS or DME: the plane I usually fly has only 1 VOR, no ILS (even LLZs don't seem to work), and a very nice vintage ADF. Oh, and GPS, but of course I'm not allowed to use that to navigate with...
Tim
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GPS 
Don't get me started on the one about the non-squawking, not talking to anyone and navigating purely by GPS pilot who landed at our aerodrome unannounced and proceeded to ditch it on the grass and run away from his aircraft when he saw something a bit more meaty than the Cessnas he was expecting to see at Cranfield taxiing his way. Hasten to say, I do not work at Cranfield
He worked out that he must've read his GPS wrong!
So futher to my last, Squawk Mode C AND talk to someone if possible for at least a FIS AND don't be embarrised to ask for your position if you're off course.
Have a good trip now.
Don't get me started on the one about the non-squawking, not talking to anyone and navigating purely by GPS pilot who landed at our aerodrome unannounced and proceeded to ditch it on the grass and run away from his aircraft when he saw something a bit more meaty than the Cessnas he was expecting to see at Cranfield taxiing his way. Hasten to say, I do not work at Cranfield
He worked out that he must've read his GPS wrong!
So futher to my last, Squawk Mode C AND talk to someone if possible for at least a FIS AND don't be embarrised to ask for your position if you're off course.
Have a good trip now.
