Engine Out Procedures at ZRH
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Engine Out Procedures at ZRH
As we all know “Engine Out” or “Contingency” procedures are responsibility of the Operator (Airline). So, I flew in two different airlines on the same aircraft type (B737-300) and Procedures were different. One’s was same as one of SIDs for that rwy so if you lose one engine you follow 5Z instead of 5U. The other’s was completely different than the SID (for the same airport – rwy).
I understand that this procedures can be different for different operators, depending how much weight penalty they can/want to tolerate, usual loads etc. What I don’t (but would like to) know is what’s ATC’s position on this. The second operator’s procedure for rwy 28 is right turn at 1dme KLO to intercept loc 14 (or 16 – can’t remember) outbound. So what happens with a/c on finals.
First, I’m not sure that I (or the other guy) would have the time to report “... following engine out procedure” immediately. As you know Engine Failure can be contained or catastrophic, PF could be doing good job or I would have to devote my “resources” watching over him. When I do say, would ATC know what my procedure is (as we saw it can be different for every single operator flying to ZRH). Would you type XYZ into some computer, flip through Jeppesen-like manual or ask me what exactly did I mean (regarding routing, levels...). Would you send aircraft on ILS to Go-around immediately
I would like to know ATCOs view on subject especially from people in ZRH.
I understand that this procedures can be different for different operators, depending how much weight penalty they can/want to tolerate, usual loads etc. What I don’t (but would like to) know is what’s ATC’s position on this. The second operator’s procedure for rwy 28 is right turn at 1dme KLO to intercept loc 14 (or 16 – can’t remember) outbound. So what happens with a/c on finals.
First, I’m not sure that I (or the other guy) would have the time to report “... following engine out procedure” immediately. As you know Engine Failure can be contained or catastrophic, PF could be doing good job or I would have to devote my “resources” watching over him. When I do say, would ATC know what my procedure is (as we saw it can be different for every single operator flying to ZRH). Would you type XYZ into some computer, flip through Jeppesen-like manual or ask me what exactly did I mean (regarding routing, levels...). Would you send aircraft on ILS to Go-around immediately
I would like to know ATCOs view on subject especially from people in ZRH.
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Not a reply from an ATCO, but another pilot! However, doing a Command course at the moment, so slightly more aware of the rules and regs than ever before (and ever likely to be again!)
As you say, the Emergency Turn is devised by the performance section of the airline. It just guarantees not hitting anything, provided followed, with an Engine Out.
So now you have a failure. ATC will not, by default, know your, or anyone's Airline specific turn. You really need to tell them ASAP, and describe what you are going to do. If they object, personally I think you have no choice but to do it anyway, sqawk 7700, and as you say, get on with flying the aircraft and dealing with the failure. Let ATC deal with flinging everyone else out of your way.
I also believe the situation is less than satisfactory, and with my operator, even in VMC, we have no choice but to follow the procedure, however daft it is (EDI 24 - proceed ahead for @3NM, then turn to the 24 FAF and hold - would be popular or what!!)
NoD
As you say, the Emergency Turn is devised by the performance section of the airline. It just guarantees not hitting anything, provided followed, with an Engine Out.
So now you have a failure. ATC will not, by default, know your, or anyone's Airline specific turn. You really need to tell them ASAP, and describe what you are going to do. If they object, personally I think you have no choice but to do it anyway, sqawk 7700, and as you say, get on with flying the aircraft and dealing with the failure. Let ATC deal with flinging everyone else out of your way.
I also believe the situation is less than satisfactory, and with my operator, even in VMC, we have no choice but to follow the procedure, however daft it is (EDI 24 - proceed ahead for @3NM, then turn to the 24 FAF and hold - would be popular or what!!)
NoD
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I know the procedures can be different. As I said I'd flown two companies on same a/c type with different procedures.
My point is: how far can company go in minimizing negative effects on MTOW (or payload if you want). I believe turning into app of active rwy can cause havoc, especially if ATC doesn't know what are you up to. Informing them immediately is nice in theory but as we know, it's Aviate, Navigate, Communicate... If a/c is under control OK, but sometimes takes time to do so (as seen in sim), than we have to turn because there is hill in front.
I really wanted ATC people opinion on this - that's why I posted in ATC forum. Ofcorse other people opinion is also more than welcomed
My point is: how far can company go in minimizing negative effects on MTOW (or payload if you want). I believe turning into app of active rwy can cause havoc, especially if ATC doesn't know what are you up to. Informing them immediately is nice in theory but as we know, it's Aviate, Navigate, Communicate... If a/c is under control OK, but sometimes takes time to do so (as seen in sim), than we have to turn because there is hill in front.
I really wanted ATC people opinion on this - that's why I posted in ATC forum. Ofcorse other people opinion is also more than welcomed
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Gaga1976,
In an engine out situation I ALWAYS ask the pilot what he needs, do you need to return to the airport immediately, do you need to go out and dump fuel first, etc. We have a check list of items that we are supposed to ask you but I try to let you fly the aircraft first and worry about answers for my emergency check list later.
Every emergency situation is different, and so your needs will vary, so I as a controller will tailor what I do to help you.
I only wish that the General Aviation community was better at letting us know when they are experiencing problems, so that we could help them before the situation becomes critical and they end up landing off field or worse crashing.
Mike
NATCA FWA
In an engine out situation I ALWAYS ask the pilot what he needs, do you need to return to the airport immediately, do you need to go out and dump fuel first, etc. We have a check list of items that we are supposed to ask you but I try to let you fly the aircraft first and worry about answers for my emergency check list later.
Every emergency situation is different, and so your needs will vary, so I as a controller will tailor what I do to help you.
I only wish that the General Aviation community was better at letting us know when they are experiencing problems, so that we could help them before the situation becomes critical and they end up landing off field or worse crashing.
Mike
NATCA FWA
