EGCC Single runway operations
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From: EGCC
EGCC Single runway operations
I am uncertain as to why Manchester were on single runway operations this morning, but would like to pass my thanks to the morning watch for their handling of the situation.
Whilst I appreciate that the operation is a team thing, the tower controller at about 0900 was obviously working at full stretch and yet there seemed very little delay to traffic - yes, I know that startup was being delayed by about 5 minutes for some traffic.
It goes to show how much has been gained with dual runway operations when you see the difference if one runway is closed.
Out of interest, would it not be advisable to add a note to the ATIS advising of single runway operations.
Well done to whichever watch was on this morning.
Scottie Dog
Whilst I appreciate that the operation is a team thing, the tower controller at about 0900 was obviously working at full stretch and yet there seemed very little delay to traffic - yes, I know that startup was being delayed by about 5 minutes for some traffic.
It goes to show how much has been gained with dual runway operations when you see the difference if one runway is closed.
Out of interest, would it not be advisable to add a note to the ATIS advising of single runway operations.
Well done to whichever watch was on this morning.
Scottie Dog
Watchdog Delta Hotel
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: here but there in 6 years
single r/way
thanks for the post for a start wondered if anybody would notice!
firstly it was 'c' watch that were on this morning and i shall pass on your thanks too the rest off them
i work the en-route side of the watch and the holding was a pain in the butt and i agree with the sentiment about the towers position as it has a knock on effect to us all (single runway ops being a distant memory by now)
as i understand it from the tower/approach point of view the second runway was not de-iced for reasons of (now the tricky bit) cost saving by the authority or 'we didn't think it would effect ops very much if we don't de-ice 06R'
not ideal which ever way round but that is what we were lead to believe
hope it didn't screw your day too much and as i think from the tone of your post we do try our best even though it's all going to rats sh!t
regrds
firstly it was 'c' watch that were on this morning and i shall pass on your thanks too the rest off them
i work the en-route side of the watch and the holding was a pain in the butt and i agree with the sentiment about the towers position as it has a knock on effect to us all (single runway ops being a distant memory by now)
as i understand it from the tower/approach point of view the second runway was not de-iced for reasons of (now the tricky bit) cost saving by the authority or 'we didn't think it would effect ops very much if we don't de-ice 06R'
not ideal which ever way round but that is what we were lead to believe
hope it didn't screw your day too much and as i think from the tone of your post we do try our best even though it's all going to rats sh!t
regrds
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Near Stalyvegas
Hi Scottie
It's SOP to give "Single" or "Dual" runways on the ATIS...Done enough broacasts
. As I am on leave, it's difficult to comment, but as mcoon says, "rats.." happens. It's easily missed
[I've been "distracted" and given one r/w on the intro and another on "report"
see you in the pub
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
It's SOP to give "Single" or "Dual" runways on the ATIS...Done enough broacasts
. As I am on leave, it's difficult to comment, but as mcoon says, "rats.." happens. It's easily missed[I've been "distracted" and given one r/w on the intro and another on "report"
see you in the pub
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
Manchesters Most Wanted PPRuNer
Joined: Jul 1999
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Ahhhh I know her very well and she's doing very very well here too 
Please feel free to enlighten me with any tales you have
You can rest assured the stories will get no further *ahem*
Is she a Ppruner too?
Please feel free to enlighten me with any tales you have
You can rest assured the stories will get no further *ahem* Is she a Ppruner too?
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
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From: London,England
working at full stretch and yet there seemed very little delay to traffic -
It goes to show how much has been gained with dual runway operations when you see the difference if one runway is closed.
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: Toronto
Max Angle
It depends how you define "very little delay".
For the period 0700-0900, inbound holding peaked at 25 minutes, averaging about 14.
Start-up delays were about 5-10 minutes but there was a holding point queue of over 10 minutes for most of the time.
Movement rates were just under 50/hour, which on a frosty morning with a crosswind wasn't bad at all.
Yes the second runway has made it easier.
50/hour on two runways is not very demanding on resources.
Airborne holding is much reduced.
Departure delays are reduced but not as much as inbound delays due to the introduction of the HON SID.
Murphy's Law of ATC
Inbound and outbound peaks don't occur at the same time unless you have only one runway to use.
It depends how you define "very little delay".
For the period 0700-0900, inbound holding peaked at 25 minutes, averaging about 14.
Start-up delays were about 5-10 minutes but there was a holding point queue of over 10 minutes for most of the time.
Movement rates were just under 50/hour, which on a frosty morning with a crosswind wasn't bad at all.
Yes the second runway has made it easier.
50/hour on two runways is not very demanding on resources.
Airborne holding is much reduced.
Departure delays are reduced but not as much as inbound delays due to the introduction of the HON SID.
Murphy's Law of ATC
Inbound and outbound peaks don't occur at the same time unless you have only one runway to use.
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: South East
I have no idea if Big Bird is a PPruner. As for for stories, she probably has far worse things on me.
Thats if she knows who I am.
Ask her about her days in Westby Road.
These young Girls. They leave the parental home and .............
Thats if she knows who I am.
Ask her about her days in Westby Road.
These young Girls. They leave the parental home and .............
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
I have made 13 landings at LHR this month (so far ....!) and the AVERAGE hold has been 14 minutes, with only on one occasion there being no delay (5 Jan @ 19:30ish) and the worst being 39 minutes in cavok on 8 Jan due lack of parking space with no slot restrictions inbound from a near European location. We landed on that occasion on 09L, with the normal spacing increased to 5nm so that everyone could vacate at the end onto 23. What the F**k was that all about, we ended up pretty short of fuel and had a stand allocated (unlike the T1/2/3 traffic) and almost had to divert just because of GMC problems.
That is nearly 3 hours of holding (mostly at LAM), I leave in 9 years and suspect that it can only get worse. We need a fourth runway now (or a plan to use 23 regularly as a 3rd in the interim).
Time for some joined up thinking by ATC (and the politicians ... no chance there then as they are the results of their predecessors education policies).
P****d off of Camberley ... possibly
That is nearly 3 hours of holding (mostly at LAM), I leave in 9 years and suspect that it can only get worse. We need a fourth runway now (or a plan to use 23 regularly as a 3rd in the interim).
Time for some joined up thinking by ATC (and the politicians ... no chance there then as they are the results of their predecessors education policies).
P****d off of Camberley ... possibly
Moderator
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From: Europe
TopBunk,
You also need to look at why airlines schedule more aircraft in to an airport than it can handle on the ground in a given period. Wonder if the airport slots people and the BAA think of this. And if they do, do airlines actually take any account of it when planning schedules ??
You also need to look at why airlines schedule more aircraft in to an airport than it can handle on the ground in a given period. Wonder if the airport slots people and the BAA think of this. And if they do, do airlines actually take any account of it when planning schedules ??
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Near Stalyvegas
Topbunk
AFAIK...... 14 mins is NIL delay
This "am's" DLAs, eg. EDDF/FRA have been posting 30+ mins delay. As have EHAM/AMS +40 and EDDM/MUN +1.30 EBBR/BRU +40 LFPG/CDG + 90
Your "point" please
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
AFAIK...... 14 mins is NIL delay
This "am's" DLAs, eg. EDDF/FRA have been posting 30+ mins delay. As have EHAM/AMS +40 and EDDM/MUN +1.30 EBBR/BRU +40 LFPG/CDG + 90
Your "point" please
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
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From: LHR/EGLL
TopBunk,
Using 23 actually cuts both stand capacity, and taxiway/GMC capacity.
We (ATC) have no say in stand allocation or capacity. We declare runway capacity, and it's up to BAA/airlines to decide if there are enough stands..........
Witness BA T4 ops for most of the morning since they moved a load of flights over from Gatwick. And bear in mind that it's not just one inbound and one outbound we have to handle, it's the newly emptied a/c being towed to the other side of the airport, then a fresh empty aircraft being towed the other way to T4 also.
Believe me, we do what we can at the time, such as 'suggesting' stand changes if a suitable stand becomes available.
Gonzo.
Using 23 actually cuts both stand capacity, and taxiway/GMC capacity.
We (ATC) have no say in stand allocation or capacity. We declare runway capacity, and it's up to BAA/airlines to decide if there are enough stands..........
Witness BA T4 ops for most of the morning since they moved a load of flights over from Gatwick. And bear in mind that it's not just one inbound and one outbound we have to handle, it's the newly emptied a/c being towed to the other side of the airport, then a fresh empty aircraft being towed the other way to T4 also.
Believe me, we do what we can at the time, such as 'suggesting' stand changes if a suitable stand becomes available.
Gonzo.
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Southampton
BIG BIRD Pt 8!!!!
Hello Mr Bear, how's life down in the warm part of the country??
Yes I know who you are!
Just got off the phone to Big Bird who said she would kill me if I said anything about her life in B'mouth.... So I'll concentrate on her life elsewhere!
Let's just say I've got some evidence to scan in so if you're interested let me know.....
Take care Vik (!) & JG
Eric
Yes I know who you are!
Just got off the phone to Big Bird who said she would kill me if I said anything about her life in B'mouth.... So I'll concentrate on her life elsewhere!
Let's just say I've got some evidence to scan in so if you're interested let me know.....
Take care Vik (!) & JG
Eric
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
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From: London,England
I think most of the drivers realise that it is not LHR ATC's fault that we go round and round the hold, at the end of the day the system is being asked to provide more capacity than it has.
What is however very frustrating is to take off from AMS or MAN with no slot, fly 25 mins down the road and be told you have 15-20 minutes holding. Surely the slot allocation system can take forecast load and slot departures accordingly. It costs about £50 a minute to keep an A321 in the air so we are talking very serious money here, millions and millions are year. With all the high tech gear in the aircraft and on the ground there must be a way to make things work better than they do.
What is however very frustrating is to take off from AMS or MAN with no slot, fly 25 mins down the road and be told you have 15-20 minutes holding. Surely the slot allocation system can take forecast load and slot departures accordingly. It costs about £50 a minute to keep an A321 in the air so we are talking very serious money here, millions and millions are year. With all the high tech gear in the aircraft and on the ground there must be a way to make things work better than they do.
