LHR - descent to an altitude call
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LHR - descent to an altitude call
I think the LHR area and tower controllers are the best I have come accross ..... but one thing always anoys me ....
When being vectored downwind at LHR comes the call :
'speedbird XYZ turn left heading 180 and descend altitude 4000 on 997'
In the flightdeck its a busy time, the non handler reads back - the handler calls 'SET QNH' and the non handler calls 'QNH SET and Crosschecked' and calls 'the vertical mode and confirms the cleared altitude.
BUT .... whilst all the above is going on in the flightdeck, immediately after the readback LHR always come back with a call :
'contact approach callsign only on 120.40'
The non handler is then interupted from the important task of setting and checking the QNH and monitoring the cleared alt has been set correctly.
The non handler is distracted having to read back the call and set the new freq .....
Often the task of checking the QNH is set properly is not done until well after its been set, and the flow of the cockpit SOP's are interupted at an important phase of the flight.
My point is : Why not delay the second call to contact approach for say 30 seconds .... why must it always come straight after the cleared to an alt call ????????
When being vectored downwind at LHR comes the call :
'speedbird XYZ turn left heading 180 and descend altitude 4000 on 997'
In the flightdeck its a busy time, the non handler reads back - the handler calls 'SET QNH' and the non handler calls 'QNH SET and Crosschecked' and calls 'the vertical mode and confirms the cleared altitude.
BUT .... whilst all the above is going on in the flightdeck, immediately after the readback LHR always come back with a call :
'contact approach callsign only on 120.40'
The non handler is then interupted from the important task of setting and checking the QNH and monitoring the cleared alt has been set correctly.
The non handler is distracted having to read back the call and set the new freq .....
Often the task of checking the QNH is set properly is not done until well after its been set, and the flow of the cockpit SOP's are interupted at an important phase of the flight.
My point is : Why not delay the second call to contact approach for say 30 seconds .... why must it always come straight after the cleared to an alt call ????????
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An good point well illustrated. I'm sure my approach buddies will take note.
If only we had fam flights..........................................
However even with our MI5 security cleareances we're still classed as a security risk on the jumpseat.
Beautiful logic by the CAA
If only we had fam flights..........................................
However even with our MI5 security cleareances we're still classed as a security risk on the jumpseat.
Beautiful logic by the CAA
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I haven't stopped laughing since I read this.
Thinks: "Oh crikey, that 757 is going to hit that 747.. but I've just given one of them a wireless instruction so I must set my toy clock and not call him again for at least 30 seconds... tick.... tock!
Thinks: "Oh crikey, that 757 is going to hit that 747.. but I've just given one of them a wireless instruction so I must set my toy clock and not call him again for at least 30 seconds... tick.... tock!
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Terribly sorry noblues, retirement has made me somewhat blasé! If this is a genuine question you deserve a serious answer. Basically there is no time for such luxuries:
First, the vast majority of ATCOs – especially those working the busy London TMA airspace - do not have the benefit of a “co-pilot” on the same frequency. Eg At Heathrow the Final Director on 120.4 always works alone; the guy on 134.97 works alone 99.99% of the time; the guy on 119.72 has help during busy times.
Second. ATCOs do not have checklists, computers or other fancy kit for their basic work – everything they do; all the decisions they make, headings, altitudes and speeds they issue come straight out of their brains with help only from a felt-tip pen, a headset, a radar display and some bits of paper to write on.
(Maybe a combination of these make ATCOs fail to appreciate the problems involved with two people working together and lots of kit to mess with?)
Third. The R/T instructions to pilots represent a fairly small part of the ATCOs’ total workload. Eg the Heathrow man on 134.97 will be liaising with the Final Director on 120.4 and the North Director on 119.72 by physically talking or by telephone about Heathrow and maybe Northolt traffic. He will also be receiving releases on inbound traffic from the TMA controllers by telephone. He will also be consulting the CCTV displays to determine the sequence of his traffic and EATs. This may also involve direct eyeball contact with the Traffic manager or EAT Allocator. If Heathrow is on easterlies he will be receiving telephone calls from the Tower requesting releases on westbound traffic (right turn 240, etc). He may also be talking to the Tower man about possible landing on 09R or he may be desperate to descend a/c in the hold because three at the same level are racing in and they’ve got to be found levels.. And, oh yes, whilst you are responsible for just your aeroplane he might be responsible for a dozen or more……. and Hey! What’s that outbound doing busting his level?….
Fourth. The precise moment at which you get the descent instruction is determined by many factors, the basic one being that you are clear of any conflicting Heathrow inbounds or outbounds, but there may well be other a/c about which you know nothing and which may prevent descent until very late. On westerlies the airspace is incredibly restricted with very little room to play with At worst it may mean you only have about 20 miles to go and to keep the spacing going the next man (120.4) needs to talk to you ASAP. So, the moment it is possible to descend you, you’ll get the call. But, often, by now the guy on 120.4 is saying something like: “180 degrees now on the Shuttle”, or “Do I get the KLM today?”, etc, etc.. so you’ve got to be transferred to him ASAP. In other words, there isn’t much time for luxuries and the extra 30 seconds you want will be used for far, far more important things by the controllers and would probably lose a space on final approach. … Point is – the controllers are busy… like MEGA-BUSY people.
In an ideal world of course ATC would love to give you a minute or two to check this, check that, etc., etc. but in a busy terminal environment having to think "Oh, XXX wants 30 seconds between instructions" simply is not feasible.
Lastly, a whinge in return on behalf of my friends, the operational ATCOs.... next time you fly into Heathrow listen to the number of times the first controller has to check a/c type or landing information received because pilots don't do what they're required to do... (Thinks when do some of them get the ATIS info when they say "information delta received" and it's actually "papa"?) And when you go to 120.4 giving your callsign only listen to the number of pilots who dish out their life stories, or recipes for aunt Mabel's flapjacks, etc. The 120.4 bloke is busting himself to turn somebody - maybe for sequencing or maybe just to prevent an airprox - and some dope in a Jumbo tells him the QNH!!!!
Take care.....
First, the vast majority of ATCOs – especially those working the busy London TMA airspace - do not have the benefit of a “co-pilot” on the same frequency. Eg At Heathrow the Final Director on 120.4 always works alone; the guy on 134.97 works alone 99.99% of the time; the guy on 119.72 has help during busy times.
Second. ATCOs do not have checklists, computers or other fancy kit for their basic work – everything they do; all the decisions they make, headings, altitudes and speeds they issue come straight out of their brains with help only from a felt-tip pen, a headset, a radar display and some bits of paper to write on.
(Maybe a combination of these make ATCOs fail to appreciate the problems involved with two people working together and lots of kit to mess with?)
Third. The R/T instructions to pilots represent a fairly small part of the ATCOs’ total workload. Eg the Heathrow man on 134.97 will be liaising with the Final Director on 120.4 and the North Director on 119.72 by physically talking or by telephone about Heathrow and maybe Northolt traffic. He will also be receiving releases on inbound traffic from the TMA controllers by telephone. He will also be consulting the CCTV displays to determine the sequence of his traffic and EATs. This may also involve direct eyeball contact with the Traffic manager or EAT Allocator. If Heathrow is on easterlies he will be receiving telephone calls from the Tower requesting releases on westbound traffic (right turn 240, etc). He may also be talking to the Tower man about possible landing on 09R or he may be desperate to descend a/c in the hold because three at the same level are racing in and they’ve got to be found levels.. And, oh yes, whilst you are responsible for just your aeroplane he might be responsible for a dozen or more……. and Hey! What’s that outbound doing busting his level?….
Fourth. The precise moment at which you get the descent instruction is determined by many factors, the basic one being that you are clear of any conflicting Heathrow inbounds or outbounds, but there may well be other a/c about which you know nothing and which may prevent descent until very late. On westerlies the airspace is incredibly restricted with very little room to play with At worst it may mean you only have about 20 miles to go and to keep the spacing going the next man (120.4) needs to talk to you ASAP. So, the moment it is possible to descend you, you’ll get the call. But, often, by now the guy on 120.4 is saying something like: “180 degrees now on the Shuttle”, or “Do I get the KLM today?”, etc, etc.. so you’ve got to be transferred to him ASAP. In other words, there isn’t much time for luxuries and the extra 30 seconds you want will be used for far, far more important things by the controllers and would probably lose a space on final approach. … Point is – the controllers are busy… like MEGA-BUSY people.
In an ideal world of course ATC would love to give you a minute or two to check this, check that, etc., etc. but in a busy terminal environment having to think "Oh, XXX wants 30 seconds between instructions" simply is not feasible.
Lastly, a whinge in return on behalf of my friends, the operational ATCOs.... next time you fly into Heathrow listen to the number of times the first controller has to check a/c type or landing information received because pilots don't do what they're required to do... (Thinks when do some of them get the ATIS info when they say "information delta received" and it's actually "papa"?) And when you go to 120.4 giving your callsign only listen to the number of pilots who dish out their life stories, or recipes for aunt Mabel's flapjacks, etc. The 120.4 bloke is busting himself to turn somebody - maybe for sequencing or maybe just to prevent an airprox - and some dope in a Jumbo tells him the QNH!!!!
Take care.....
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Fascinating!
Someone raises a genuine concern about a matter of safety which could result in a level bust at best and a collision at worst and it first gets laughed off then gets ".......can't do anything about it 'cos we're too busy".
I think it's time I retired!
Someone raises a genuine concern about a matter of safety which could result in a level bust at best and a collision at worst and it first gets laughed off then gets ".......can't do anything about it 'cos we're too busy".
I think it's time I retired!
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I am sure that HD didn't mean to sound as blase as he feared in his first post.....!
It is appreciated that this is a busy time for a flightdeck and when controllers can, we make things as easy as possible for you. (i.e. Imagining the 1000ft to go bell going off on the flightdeck ourselves, and giving you continual descent if possible). Don't forget that descent is kept until as late a time as we can for CDA's - fuel conusmption.....seperation from the outbounds!
I think that the simple case is that there is little that can be done - and we all have to live with it and do the best we can.
Also, one pilot/controllers whinge is anothers saviour. You can please some of the people all of the time....................
AS HAS BEEN SAID ABOVE - PILOTS CAN HELP BY WRITING TO THEIR CHIEF PILOT/CAA/BALPA etc AND GET FAM FLIGHTS BACK ON THE SCHEDULE. LACK OF UNDERSTANDING BY BOTH WILL CONTINUE TO WIDEN.
It is appreciated that this is a busy time for a flightdeck and when controllers can, we make things as easy as possible for you. (i.e. Imagining the 1000ft to go bell going off on the flightdeck ourselves, and giving you continual descent if possible). Don't forget that descent is kept until as late a time as we can for CDA's - fuel conusmption.....seperation from the outbounds!
I think that the simple case is that there is little that can be done - and we all have to live with it and do the best we can.
Also, one pilot/controllers whinge is anothers saviour. You can please some of the people all of the time....................
AS HAS BEEN SAID ABOVE - PILOTS CAN HELP BY WRITING TO THEIR CHIEF PILOT/CAA/BALPA etc AND GET FAM FLIGHTS BACK ON THE SCHEDULE. LACK OF UNDERSTANDING BY BOTH WILL CONTINUE TO WIDEN.
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I don't know why, but reading this thread made me think of another recent one
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noblues,
I've only been doing this Heathrow Approach lark for around 12 years.
So, from a junior, my own view is that what you ask is certainly possible some of the time but perhaps not all of it.
But whatever, I'll take it on board and bear it in mind for the future. Thanks for pointing out how we might be able to help you out.
And add my name to the list of those that think we should have the NATS Fam Flight Scheme back up and running asap.
WF.
My point is : Why not delay the second call to contact approach for say 30 seconds .... why must it always come straight after the cleared to an alt call ????????
So, from a junior, my own view is that what you ask is certainly possible some of the time but perhaps not all of it.
But whatever, I'll take it on board and bear it in mind for the future. Thanks for pointing out how we might be able to help you out.
And add my name to the list of those that think we should have the NATS Fam Flight Scheme back up and running asap.
WF.
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There is more to it though than just fams... The pilots NEED to come and sit in on a course to learn something about what goes on in ATC. There are a LOT of pilots out there with a bunch of hours who THINK that they have the flick as to what goes on with what we do but really don't know the complexities or the real truths.
I have many folks come to our class and sit and learn and to a person come away with a "wow, I had no idea." This comes from not just the low time IFR or VFR pilot, but also the high time instructor, B777 check airman etc... It is high time that the airlines spent the money and sent each one of the aircrew through a facility for a real class in ATC. Not just the ten minute tour of here are all the play toys and watch the folks in the headsets. But don't feed them...
rant off, and I will check back in, in two weeks after my trip to DC and Orlando...
regards
Scott
I have many folks come to our class and sit and learn and to a person come away with a "wow, I had no idea." This comes from not just the low time IFR or VFR pilot, but also the high time instructor, B777 check airman etc... It is high time that the airlines spent the money and sent each one of the aircrew through a facility for a real class in ATC. Not just the ten minute tour of here are all the play toys and watch the folks in the headsets. But don't feed them...
rant off, and I will check back in, in two weeks after my trip to DC and Orlando...
regards
Scott
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Thanks for the responses ......
Yeah, a real shame about the jump seat policy, although we do still have ATC for experience flights .... but you need a letter signed by our ops director ........
At least LHR does clear us down to an alt before the glide, unlike a few places in Europe that establish us on the GS/LOC still on a Flight Level ! (uuuuhhmm !).
Modern a/c like the Airbus allow the crew to 'pre-select' the QNH in the cruise when they obtain the ATIS. Problem with the Airbus the actual figure is hidden from view until the two pilots press their QNH/STD buttons when they get the changeover.
Its easy for one of the crew to have miss set the QNH from the ATIS, or for the setting to have changed, or for one of the crew to have not pressed the QNH/STD button and checked his ALT scale to see it had changed over .... all this happens whilst headings and new cleared alts are being given .... having a feq change at the same time adds to the potential for cock up ....... and is distracting .....
Often it is not possible for the handling pilot to make the call 'SET QNH' becuase of the new freq call taking up the crews attention, whilst changing heading and setting up a new cleared ALT and the associated vertical modes .... Its very busy during those 20-30 seconds !
I do apprecitate that you guys (and girls) do a great job and we don't have the full picture of your enviroment. Often its very easy for us to look at things on a very one sided basis ..........
Cheers
Yeah, a real shame about the jump seat policy, although we do still have ATC for experience flights .... but you need a letter signed by our ops director ........
At least LHR does clear us down to an alt before the glide, unlike a few places in Europe that establish us on the GS/LOC still on a Flight Level ! (uuuuhhmm !).
Modern a/c like the Airbus allow the crew to 'pre-select' the QNH in the cruise when they obtain the ATIS. Problem with the Airbus the actual figure is hidden from view until the two pilots press their QNH/STD buttons when they get the changeover.
Its easy for one of the crew to have miss set the QNH from the ATIS, or for the setting to have changed, or for one of the crew to have not pressed the QNH/STD button and checked his ALT scale to see it had changed over .... all this happens whilst headings and new cleared alts are being given .... having a feq change at the same time adds to the potential for cock up ....... and is distracting .....
Often it is not possible for the handling pilot to make the call 'SET QNH' becuase of the new freq call taking up the crews attention, whilst changing heading and setting up a new cleared ALT and the associated vertical modes .... Its very busy during those 20-30 seconds !
I do apprecitate that you guys (and girls) do a great job and we don't have the full picture of your enviroment. Often its very easy for us to look at things on a very one sided basis ..........
Cheers
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If this is a standard frequency transfer for you into LHR may I suggest that you have the next frequency dialled up (well beofre the instruction to change) on the second box so it just becomes a simple matter of switching.
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As has been pointed out, the loading on the Heathrow Directors is high and the landing rate has become "king". I hadn't realised that following the descent instruction immediately with the frequency change was causing so much trouble. Re-instatement of the fam-flight scheme is clearly essential.
Of all the turns we give, the base leg is the most important to time correctly because at that moment the "gap" is opening out at nearly 6 miles per minute. Miss the turn by 10 seconds and it will take 3 minutes on the final approach to catch up the lost mile. (One can often hear FIN muttering "shut up shut up shut up" under his breath when unable to get 'in' when he needs to.) If the landing rate is to be maintined FIN has to have that traffic under his control in good time.
However, I repeat a point I made before: We have loaded Heathrow's runways, terminals, airspace and R/t to the point where we are having to cut these corners to make the numbers match. Redundancy is not a waste or luxury, it is an essential part of the safety culture that we must adhere to. In allowing our redundancy to be used for additional movements rather than safety, NATS, HM Gov't and HAL have exposed us to significant risk. I believe they call it a "commercial" decision and it works on the basis that as things rarely go wrong, they won't. Weren't we first taught that if something can go wrong it will?
Since Heathrow became essentially saturated a few years back we have not had a really nasty winter. When eventually we do, the ATCOs are going to bear the brunt of it. The last few days ought to serve as notice of that. It is my considered opinion that we who operate this system have a duty to resist such erosion and work towards the restoration of safety margins. Yes, that means standing up and saying no.
Point 4
Of all the turns we give, the base leg is the most important to time correctly because at that moment the "gap" is opening out at nearly 6 miles per minute. Miss the turn by 10 seconds and it will take 3 minutes on the final approach to catch up the lost mile. (One can often hear FIN muttering "shut up shut up shut up" under his breath when unable to get 'in' when he needs to.) If the landing rate is to be maintined FIN has to have that traffic under his control in good time.
However, I repeat a point I made before: We have loaded Heathrow's runways, terminals, airspace and R/t to the point where we are having to cut these corners to make the numbers match. Redundancy is not a waste or luxury, it is an essential part of the safety culture that we must adhere to. In allowing our redundancy to be used for additional movements rather than safety, NATS, HM Gov't and HAL have exposed us to significant risk. I believe they call it a "commercial" decision and it works on the basis that as things rarely go wrong, they won't. Weren't we first taught that if something can go wrong it will?
Since Heathrow became essentially saturated a few years back we have not had a really nasty winter. When eventually we do, the ATCOs are going to bear the brunt of it. The last few days ought to serve as notice of that. It is my considered opinion that we who operate this system have a duty to resist such erosion and work towards the restoration of safety margins. Yes, that means standing up and saying no.
Point 4
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For the ATCOs...
Thanks for taking this on board:
1. We do usually have 120.4 dialled up...
2. On Nigel's B757/767 we not only have to set the QNH, cross check it about 3 times, and utter various words dictated by our Mgmt, but THEN do an Approach Checklist, which largely consists of... checking the QNH!
3. It might be the one occasion where combining the instruction is better than splitting it "BAxxx descend 4000' on xxx and contact 120.4 C/S only..."
As you say, its FAM flights needed (and visits from us to you!) - we had an ATC Sup from W Drayton on board some time back, and he left our flight to immediately debrief what had happened...
NoD
Thanks for taking this on board:
1. We do usually have 120.4 dialled up...
2. On Nigel's B757/767 we not only have to set the QNH, cross check it about 3 times, and utter various words dictated by our Mgmt, but THEN do an Approach Checklist, which largely consists of... checking the QNH!
3. It might be the one occasion where combining the instruction is better than splitting it "BAxxx descend 4000' on xxx and contact 120.4 C/S only..."
As you say, its FAM flights needed (and visits from us to you!) - we had an ATC Sup from W Drayton on board some time back, and he left our flight to immediately debrief what had happened...
NoD
Much as I appreciate the original problem, I think it highly unlikely that the UK ATC Regulators would approve an instruction to descend and change frequency in one transmission. Despite the list of mandatory readbacks, such a procedure would lead to cases of pilots 'escaping' to the next frequency without first reading back the descent clearance to ATC, who are required to obtain a correct read back.
Last edited by spekesoftly; 12th Jan 2003 at 21:42.
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@ Nigel, even though I'm working this side of the channel, the problems appear to be the same, i.e. lack of understanding for the other side, no fam flights, ...
I'd just like to comment on your suggestion to combine instruction and frequency change. As reasonable as it sounds it's something I won't do. Just imagine: XXX descent alt 4000, QNH 993, turn right hdg 250, contact 120.4. Readback: XXX descending 3000, QNH 994 right hdg 220, 120.4, good bye. And he is gone. And it's my nerves, until I get the next sector on landline and tell him what you told me wrong. Sending you to the next frequency is my very last instruction to you. I have checked that your read backs were correct, I have checked you meet the handover criteria coordinated with the next sector, I have checked you are not conflicting to any traffic I have any more. Sending you away with my last instruction, I forfeit my last chance of correcting anything on my freq. Even though not on paper we do have some kind of checklists as well.
Chances are, that the major european airlines have their pilots trained well enough to be always the proverbial 5 minutes ahead. But our customers are bizjets and Mr. PPL-IR as well.
And besides, it's not about taking chances. Safety is our business.
How about that: since you're expecting the frequency change, why not read back, take the freq change as well, and then start your check list. I'm sure there's enough paper around in the cockpit to take a note or another.
Safe landings, FR
I'd just like to comment on your suggestion to combine instruction and frequency change. As reasonable as it sounds it's something I won't do. Just imagine: XXX descent alt 4000, QNH 993, turn right hdg 250, contact 120.4. Readback: XXX descending 3000, QNH 994 right hdg 220, 120.4, good bye. And he is gone. And it's my nerves, until I get the next sector on landline and tell him what you told me wrong. Sending you to the next frequency is my very last instruction to you. I have checked that your read backs were correct, I have checked you meet the handover criteria coordinated with the next sector, I have checked you are not conflicting to any traffic I have any more. Sending you away with my last instruction, I forfeit my last chance of correcting anything on my freq. Even though not on paper we do have some kind of checklists as well.
Chances are, that the major european airlines have their pilots trained well enough to be always the proverbial 5 minutes ahead. But our customers are bizjets and Mr. PPL-IR as well.
And besides, it's not about taking chances. Safety is our business.
How about that: since you're expecting the frequency change, why not read back, take the freq change as well, and then start your check list. I'm sure there's enough paper around in the cockpit to take a note or another.
Safe landings, FR
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Well, since this thread has been running I have noticed you guys and girls at LATCC do seem to have taken this on board ...... in the last few weeks their does seem to be more of a pause between the two calls .....or is it just my imagination !
I wonder how many LATCC people read PPRUNE !!!!!
THANKS .........
I wonder how many LATCC people read PPRUNE !!!!!
THANKS .........